CK "gas saver" consumables > good?

[johncaletti]

I've been having some issues with argon coverage being disrupted from time to time. I'm using a CK 130 torch with Weldcraft giant cup and heatsheild, gas lens, and CK collet and back cap. Anyhow, I think the heatshield fit isn't so good, and the collet to lens fit is not the best, and I think this is the source of my issues. I'm looking at getting al CK products to replace them and try that, and in doing so was looking at their "Gas Saver" consumables.
Does anyone have experience using these parts? I'd like to hear what you think of them.

(note: I want to run the giant cup to be Ti compatible, but am mostly using it with steel)

Thanks a bunch,
John Caletti

[Dornbox]

I had same same issue a while ago but it came down to a semi kink caused by a twist where the gas line leaves the machine goes into the power cable. As for leaks at the torch, I've used caps that where busted (open end) and never had any issues with it.

Good luck, my issue nearly drove me bat $hit crazy!- Chris

[Archibald]

I've been having some issues with argon coverage being disrupted from time to time. I'm using a CK 130 torch with Weldcraft giant cup and heatsheild, gas lens, and CK collet and back cap. Anyhow, I think the heatshield fit isn't so good, and the collet to lens fit is not the best, and I think this is the source of my issues. I'm looking at getting al CK products to replace them and try that, and in doing so was looking at their "Gas Saver" consumables.
Does anyone have experience using these parts? I'd like to hear what you think of them.

(note: I want to run the giant cup to be Ti compatible, but am mostly using it with steel)

Thanks a bunch,
John Caletti

You talking about the clear pyrex cups and those funky gas lenses they sell with them? Here's what you do: take off the cup and the gas lens. Walk outside your shop where you can see better with bright sunlight. Now toss that madderphacker as far as you can.

A common problem when you get coverage issues resulting in porosity is that you increase your gas flow cfm thinking that will make it better. It does just the opposite. If your shielding gas' velocity is to high leaving the cup it will suck air into its vortex and contaminate your weld.

[johncaletti]

Yes, I was talking about the clear cups, etc. I've gotten all thumbs down replies, so I will not get that stuff. I'll get the regular stuff.
I tried switching torches on the same hose and hoses with the same torch. It's not the hose. It does seem to be the torch and parts. The trouble is that it's not consistent. My best guess is that the parts don't all fit together that well and there is some gas leakage around the electrode that disturbs the flow.
I am familiar with the idea of the greater purge flow can disrupt the coverage. I tried the troubled torch with several different flow rates, no real change. I have been using 22 cfm on steel successfully with the extra large alumina cup and lens.
My current plan is to get all CK products for the torch parts, even though it's supposed to be compatible with Weldcraft parts (which is what I'm using apart from the CK handle and back cap).
Thanks for the input!
If you have other ideas I'd be glad to hear them.

[Dornbox]

Don will know more specifically and will hopefully check back and comment for you but I run 12-15 with my large lens and a #12 cup. 22 sounds a little high but that's only based on the fact that I run a lot less.

[johncaletti]

I ran less with the regular large lens/cup, but upped it when going to the super size (as would be used for Ti). If I remember correctly, when I first installed the jumbo setup I wasn't getting good argon coverage until I bumped up the flow a bit.

[Archibald]

Yes, I was talking about the clear cups, etc. I've gotten all thumbs down replies, so I will not get that stuff. I'll get the regular stuff.
I tried switching torches on the same hose and hoses with the same torch. It's not the hose. It does seem to be the torch and parts. The trouble is that it's not consistent. My best guess is that the parts don't all fit together that well and there is some gas leakage around the electrode that disturbs the flow.
I am familiar with the idea of the greater purge flow can disrupt the coverage. I tried the troubled torch with several different flow rates, no real change. I have been using 22 cfm on steel successfully with the extra large alumina cup and lens.
My current plan is to get all CK products for the torch parts, even though it's supposed to be compatible with Weldcraft parts (which is what I'm using apart from the CK handle and back cap).
Thanks for the input!
If you have other ideas I'd be glad to hear them.

Just to make sure there's no confusion, it's really CFH not CFM but as long as we're all working off the same page it's fine. 22 sounds high to me, near double what I run but we'd have to assume our metering is the same. I'd throttle it back nonetheless. I don't think you could leak enough gas out of the torch to cause real problems unless the leakage was severe and obvious or to the point of sucking air in. Unlikely, IMHO. One thing to do before you start tossing parts is to check your bottle. I know that both Carl and I have both had contaminated bottles and that will really bake your noodle trying to figure out what went wrong. When I get mystery issues these days at new bottle startup, I isolate one bottle from the other and see if there's a problem (I run a daisy chain setup in my shop so I always have two full size bottles).

[johncaletti]

Thanks. I'll try lowering the flow. I don't have another bottle, but I might have to go that route. I've wondered about getting a bad one.

[anthonymaietta]

Adding more turd to the pile. I have switched back to my alumina gas lens. That CK pyrex Gas Saver system was horrible, horrible, horrible. Night and day difference in purge.

[Dornbox]

Adding more turd to the pile. I have switched back to my alumina gas lens. That CK pyrex Gas Saver system was horrible, horrible, horrible. Night and day difference in purge.

Last time I was at your shop I didn't think that you where looking to happy with it. I didn't have that bad of a time with mine personally but a basic lens is wayyyyyyyy better. I won't be going back to the CK gas saver. I did tell John about the superflex though, he was already down with that one. Best investment I've made for sure.

[John Winston]

Adding more turd to the pile. I have switched back to my alumina gas lens. That CK pyrex Gas Saver system was horrible, horrible, horrible. Night and day difference in purge.

Are you using a gas lens or a large gas lens?

[JFW]

Interesting thread, guys. I know that we're a few Europeans here on the forum, so this flow rate conversion table might be of interest: Handbook - Conversion Tables





Truls

[Dornbox]

Are you using a gas lens or a large gas lens?

Tony and I have both gone back to large lenses... Tony actually has a jumbo lens if I remember correctly. I didn't have the coverage issues that Tony had but I was using a lot of gas and the coverage wasn't as good as the lens and #12 cup I use now.

[Archibald]

This is what I use and I can't imagine using anything else. They're like $20 from my LWS and I've had great results with them. I use the stub version because its easier to manipulate the torch into tight places.



It looks like they have a new one out too but I've never tried it:

[Dornbox]

Don,

Does that work in conjunction with a standard lens. IE is it basically a short nozzle or would you have to buy the full kit because the lens is proprietary? I love how short it is compared to the #12 cups. Thanks -Chris

[VertigoCycles]

This is what I use and I can't imagine using anything else. They're like $20 from my LWS and I've had great results with them. I use the stub version because its easier to manipulate the torch into tight places.

With deference to your experience with that nozzle, my experience with it was terrible. I've since changed to a big ass gas lens and a #12 cup.

[Rody]

John,

Although this does not help trouble shoot your inquiry, this is what I've used for years with excellent results.

Workhorse WP-20 liquid cooled torch body. The only issue I've ever had in almost 17 years has been a failure of the encased power cable due to excessive/repetitive bending near the torch body causing a short. Took me a couple of days to trouble shoot, only 50 bucks to replace.

Don and I have a liking for similar equipment for Ti...the Weldcraft II. I don't know what issues Sean had with it, but I've found it to be an excellent tool for coverage on round intersections at a company suggested flow of 40cfh with my gloved hand wrapped around the cup as it travels, with near 90 degree attitude to the tube. It allows good flow over coverage without turbulent involvement. On flat surfaces, the flow rate is cut back almost by half for a nice even surface coverage.

For steel bicycle tubing, I use an alumina cup with diffuser lens, can't remember the size opening (7 I think?) as I buy them buy the 20 count box and it's been awhile since purchasing. I run the flow at 12-15cfh and it gives mighty fine even coverage on all surface configurations. Nozzle is a nice size without getting too bulky for tight crotch areas.

cheers,

rody

I tried to order the pictures but have failed miserably, so you get what you get

[VertigoCycles]

I had to foil dam every joint with the original Champagne nozzle. I haven't tried the Nozzle II so I can't comment on it. Just so it's all out here, I use WP-9 and WP-9 flex head torches on CK's wonderful superflex hoses. The original champagne nozzle for WP-9 fit the standard collet bodies and not those for gas lenses and if I didn't dam everything up, I'd get blue and purple all over the place. I have no doubt they work for some people (I've seen them put to use successfully elsewhere) but they sure didn't work for me no matter how I rigged my system.

My favorite thing about the XL lens and #12 nozzle (other than problem free welding) - if I ever shatter the nozzle it'll take me a 10min trip to the LWS to get a new one.

PS - Jon, if you want to try the old style Weld-Tec Champagne nozzle, I can bring one to NAHBS for you. If it works for you, all the better.

[Archibald]

I had to foil dam every joint with the original Champagne nozzle. I haven't tried the Nozzle II so I can't comment on it. Just so it's all out here, I use WP-9 and WP-9 flex head torches on CK's wonderful superflex hoses. The original champagne nozzle for WP-9 fit the standard collet bodies and not those for gas lenses and if I didn't dam everything up, I'd get blue and purple all over the place. I have no doubt they work for some people (I've seen them put to use successfully elsewhere) but they sure didn't work for me no matter how I rigged my system.

My favorite thing about the XL lens and #12 nozzle (other than problem free welding) - if I ever shatter the nozzle it'll take me a 10min trip to the LWS to get a new one.

PS - Jon, if you want to try the old style Weld-Tec Champagne nozzle, I can bring one to NAHBS for you. If it works for you, all the better.

I've never used a Champagne nozzle that didn't have a gas lens. You were using one with just a regular collet body?

[Archibald]

John,

Although this does not help trouble shoot your inquiry, this is what I've used for years with excellent results.

Workhorse WP-20 liquid cooled torch body. The only issue I've ever had in almost 17 years has been a failure of the encased power cable due to excessive/repetitive bending near the torch body causing a short. Took me a couple of days to trouble shoot, only 50 bucks to replace.

Don and I have a liking for similar equipment for Ti...the Weldcraft II. I don't know what issues Sean had with it, but I've found it to be an excellent tool for coverage on round intersections at a company suggested flow of 40cfh with my gloved hand wrapped around the cup as it travels, with near 90 degree attitude to the tube. It allows good flow over coverage without turbulent involvement. On flat surfaces, the flow rate is cut back almost by half for a nice even surface coverage.

For steel bicycle tubing, I use an alumina cup with diffuser lens, can't remember the size opening (7 I think?) as I buy them buy the 20 count box and it's been awhile since purchasing. I run the flow at 12-15cfh and it gives mighty fine even coverage on all surface configurations. Nozzle is a nice size without getting too bulky for tight crotch areas.

cheers,

rody

I tried to order the pictures but have failed miserably, so you get what you get

40cfh? Whoa, I've never run that high! It'd be interesting to know how flow rates on different regulators compare as I've always suspected they're wildly off from one another. I use a Victor dual myself.