Cross Dropout Preference

[CyclesNoir]

Horizontal versus Vertical and why?

[e-RICHIE]

Horizontal versus Vertical and why?

verticals 100 percent of the time.
21st century skewer designs SUCK and a pair of vertical dropout is your insurance policy atmo.

[Curt Goodrich]

+100% for verticals. In addition I'd say non-hooded verticals. The hooded style drop outs only slow wheel changes and offer no advantages.

[CyclesNoir]

Danke

[jerk]

hooded vertical drop-outs. cross bikes don't need fast wheel changes because there's always a spare bike in the pit, but they do need tire clearance and that can mean using somewhat more spindly chainstays than you might on your road bike. hooded drop outs make a bike that is less prone to wiggling from side to side all other things being equal. i like this because on my cross bikes i'm generally using longer stays- and smaller ones too. (zonal s bend) i'd never use hooded drop outs on a road bike- but i use'em exclusively on cross bikes.

[Dazza]

hooded vertical drop-outs. cross bikes don't need fast wheel changes because there's always a spare bike in the pit, but they do need tire clearance and that can mean using somewhat more spindly chainstays than you might on your road bike. hooded drop outs make a bike that is less prone to wiggling from side to side all other things being equal. i like this because on my cross bikes i'm generally using longer stays- and smaller ones too. (zonal s bend) i'd never use hooded drop outs on a road bike- but i use'em exclusively on cross bikes.

Jerk is correct
The drop out design does have a lot of effect on the rigidity of the rear end of a bike
When one pedals the movement is from the dropout (rigid at the wheel and the bottom of the head tube )
the BB swings between these points
the mistake is many think that all the stress and resulting strains just run down the tubes into the BB shell
and sadly
this myth gets repeated and repeated.
When I attacked my dropout project I put some thought into the shape of the flow from the chain stay to the seat stay and how this interacted with the wheel axle bite. Hence a medium shaped hood but not large enough to create hassles with the quick release lever fouling the dropout.
It all worked out well.
I will add there is no reason why these advantages cannot also applied to all road bikes as well as CC bikes
Also track bikes, but I don't make enough real track bikes (sigh) to justify a cast dropout design for track bikes and fixies. (well not yet................)
The forged/stamping process in the manufacture of dropouts has limitations to what can be achieved with the shape of the part. For some time now the investment casting of frame parts has removed these limitations which I believe allows a better functional design while looking sexy and belonging to 21 century frame building aesthetic.
Any Questions?

[Curtis Inglis]

Ok


here is my two cents, Hooded vertical. I just feel they are a stiffer lighter choice. The paragon version weld up really nicely tig. or Brazed.

[cardinal]

What?! Curtis Inglis on V-Salon? How'd that happen?

[e-RICHIE]

What?! Curtis Inglis on V-Salon? How'd that happen?

it's who you know atmo.

[gabe.....]

it's who you know atmo.

And who's been in your shop...........Mr. Inglis is an inspiration for sure! I want to do it just like him when I "grow up". He once graciously schooled me in my own back yard on the bike and in the shop.
Also, I like the vert DO's that Dazza designed/made/showed.......why? Cause they are just plain SEXY.

[e-RICHIE]

what does this mean atmo?

And who's been in your shop...........Mr. Inglis is an inspiration for sure! I want to do it just like him when I "grow up". He once graciously schooled me in my own back yard on the bike and in the shop.
Also, I like the vert DO's that Dazza designed/made/showed.......why? Cause they are just plain SEXY.

[Curt Goodrich]

Dazza,

I wouldn't describe your lovely drops as hooded. I would describe them as socket style. When I think of hooded drops I think of something like this-
Rear 'breezer style' hooded dropouts | Singular Cycles NZ
The hooded drop outs have very little limitations on stay OD. I get why builders like them. I've built many bikes with them. The hooded drops are stiffer as evidenced by how difficult they are to H-tool them. But to posit that this additional stiffness is somehow perceivable while riding well... I'm sorry that's a little too princess and the pea for me. With a classic forged drop out vs. hooded style drop out the distance from the edge of the drop out face to the chain stay where the stay is in it's round state is about 10-15mm. So are people arguing that an increase in stiffness of those 10-15mm over the length of 420-430mm is significant enough to be felt when riding? I seriously doubt that. I'm not saying any of this to get people to change what they use. As to racers having multiple bikes, yes some do. But most don't. So wheel changes do matter in my experience.

[e-RICHIE]

if you need a wheel change in a 'cross race you are no longer in it atmo.
verticals are better because modern skewers mostly suck.

[gabe.....]

what does this mean atmo?

Sorry.....when I was a kid in the 60's, I fell off my bike regularly without a helmet so sometimes it's hard to understand me.
So, what I am tying to say is.......Curtis is cool, I kinda know him, and vert DO's like Dazza's are SEXY.

[Dazza]

Dazza,

I wouldn't describe your lovely drops as hooded. I would describe them as socket style. When I think of hooded drops I think of something like this-
Rear 'breezer style' hooded dropouts | Singular Cycles NZ
Agreed, what I was trying to convey is the surface shape between the CS and SS has some hood shape to it, it is this area that puts material in a plane that resists stains, I could cut up some CAD drawings to show this which might not be apparent in the photographs
The hooded drop outs have very little limitations on stay OD. I get why builders like them. I've built many bikes with them. The hooded drops are stiffer as evidenced by how difficult they are to H-tool them. with a forged dropout you are bending the dropout to H tool align, with a true hooded dropout you are bending the chainstay/seat stay to set the dropout, hence lots of grunt. (H tools can lie when looking for very tight tolerances, as the dropout wheel bite facet can distort, very minor but it is there. With my cast dropouts there is still some freedom to ensure very nice alignments, more difficult then forged but then the rotational alignment is easier during the build than forged dropsBut to posit that this additional stiffness is somehow perceivable while riding well... I'm sorry that's a little too princess and the pea for me. With a classic forged drop out vs. hooded style drop out the distance from the edge of the drop out face to the chain stay where the stay is in it's round state is about 10-15mm. So are people arguing that an increase in stiffness of those 10-15mm over the length of 420-430mm is significant enough to be felt when riding? I seriously doubt that. agreed, the distance is not important, it is the gusseted effect that the material in the hood or dropout that is a flat plane when viewing in plan view that increases the rigidity of the CS, rear axle and CS assembly, the moment is at the dropout, not the BB as many think as the BB swings. It is measurable on a jig. The large surface area as you mention makes attaching any seat stay size to the dropout. The chain stay diameter at the dropout is just as important as at the BB shell. I'm not saying any of this to get people to change what they use. As to racers having multiple bikes, yes some do. But most don't. So wheel changes do matter in my experience.

Rock on dropouts
Not enough attention is paid to dropouts

[CyclesNoir]

Thanks to all - it's been an inspirational thread!