so - what would you like to see here atmo?

[e-RICHIE]

we set this place up so that builders could chat with builders and folks who
were interested in the thread(s) could also jump in and add some flavor (but
not steer the conversation off course). now that we've all prepped for, done,
and counted our money from nahbs, i thought i'd start a thread about this very
board. we have some several dozen professional builders who are signed in to
create threads, and legions of others who can read and post.

how can this board best serve your frame-ish needs atmo?

[Too Tall]

No limits. Let's capture all ideas and react. This forum has many many modifications and possibilities beyond just a comment board. Go for it.

[steve garro]

i'm not sure..........honestly, not to sound elitist, but i'm not into telling people where to buy flux and silver vs. brass threads. what's left? bulk material purchases? insurance co-op? i hate to use the word but this would start sounding like things associated with a "guild"........Steve.

[e-RICHIE]

i'm not sure..........honestly, not to sound elitist, but i'm not into telling people where to buy flux and silver vs. brass threads. what's left? bulk material purchases? insurance co-op? i hate to use the word but this would start sounding like things associated with a "guild"........Steve.

eh i dunno - i'll tell folks anything and share almost any resource atmo.
i type quick, keep it brief, and get back to my pinball machine. all the
posts in the world can line up, but folks still gotta do their own work.
and - if it gets too repetitive or contentious, i'll make mention of the
search engine atmo. later - must start drinking now.

[maunahaole]

On that note, can the software be coded so that the forum will dispense beer and/or coffee?

[Dave]

Not being a frame builder I think a couple of things you all accomplish would be interesting.

Besides fittings, double checking the measurements and cutting, where do you prefer to begin the build?

What have you not done that you would like to...just once to see how it worked for you? Is there a project you have kept to yourself that you would care to share?

I see builders show off their fine products, but for those of us who are not budding builders, we don't truly understand how you see the build. Do you see numbers and get a picture in your mind, are there moments u enjoy during the process more then others?

Does the handmade show put pressure on you to create something new each year to out do someone else?

[zank]

I would love to talk more about business strategy, marketing, selling, and that kind of stuff. I think a hearty discussion on drumming up business outside of the forum world would be cool. I mean, we love all you cats who keep us afloat, but this pond is only so big and there are lots of folks out there who don't frequent these great places.

[maunahaole]

To follow on what zank has mentioned, an important thing for the more established and knowledgeable industry folks to pass along is wisdom. WHat I'm thinking is good advice on what NOT to do, deals NOT to make, etc. Just some guidelines on traps that are good to avoid in dealing with suppliers, customers, problem builds, etc. Places where is it good to spend a little more time and effort now to avoid bigger problems down the road. Being in business, especially for a hand made specialty/luxury product can be a minefield of uncertainty. How do you avoid the mis-steps?

[e-RICHIE]

To follow on what zank has mentioned, an important thing for the more established and knowledgeable industry folks to pass along is wisdom. WHat I'm thinking is good advice on what NOT to do, deals NOT to make, etc. Just some guidelines on traps that are good to avoid in dealing with suppliers, customers, problem builds, etc. Places where is it good to spend a little more time and effort now to avoid bigger problems down the road. Being in business, especially for a hand made specialty/luxury product can be a minefield of uncertainty. How do you avoid the mis-steps?

atmo i have opinions and share them kinda sorta regularly.
if i see questions about this stuff (you note) i'll chime inmo.
just sayin'.

[shorelocal]

I would love to talk more about business strategy, marketing, selling, and that kind of stuff. I think a hearty discussion on drumming up business outside of the forum world would be cool. I mean, we love all you cats who keep us afloat, but this pond is only so big and there are lots of folks out there who don't frequent these great places.

Speaking of business, do the independent framebuilders prefer to run the whole show from end-to-end or would some prefer to just build and leave the business/selling/marketing side to someone else?

Is the most enjoyable part the actual building, or perhaps the satisfaction a builder gets working with individual customers and incorporating different ideas (ie. planning/brainstorming), or perhaps just seeing their bikes being ridden/raced?

[e-RICHIE]

Speaking of business, do the independent framebuilders prefer to run the whole show from end-to-end or would some prefer to just build and leave the business/selling/marketing side to someone else?

Is the most enjoyable part the actual building, or perhaps the satisfaction a builder gets working with individual customers and incorporating different ideas (ie. planning/brainstorming), or perhaps just seeing their bikes being ridden/raced?

i'm a loner and over the years have controlled everything. it's only in recent
times that i have conceded a project or two (as in, a print ad or similar) to
someone else. once a control freak, etcetera. and in most cases, ideas and
concepts percolate for months, even years, before they become reality. some
examples would include logo revisions, ways to run the teams, and terms of
business. at the end of the day, the framebuilding process is the easy part,
but finding ways to promote and sustain the business eventually became part
of the routine. at this point in my life, it's the sum total that gives me the
pleasure. i do consider all of it to be part of the creative process, not just
the time spent at the bench atmo.

[RudAwkning]

You could even pose questions to your customers about what they enjoyed about their experiences with the builders.

That'd seem like good business for the framebulders.

[e-RICHIE]

You could even pose questions to your customers about what they enjoyed about their experiences with the builders.

That'd seem like good business for the builders.

that's true, but the general discussion boards usually have those
topics. that subject has some dot.com overlap issues and i'd rather
see more impersonal stuff talked about. the relationship between a
maker and a client is one that should be respected, and calling
them out, here, may cross lines atmo. no matter. we want more
builders talking with builders, and if it happens that clients chime
in about stuff, we'll see where it leads. thanks atmo.

[Bill Ladd]

...insurance co-op?...

I'd love to see that discussed here and be a part of it if it came to fruition. I'm building frame number three and have an eye toward, perhaps, hanging out a shingle at some point. (Yes, I know three frames does not a competent frame builder make. I'm talking distant future here folks:angel:)

Presently, I make my living as an electrical contractor, actor and musician. My contractor's business liability here in North Carolina is less than $800 a year.

Seems inequitable that I'd need to pay upwards of $1,500 or more to build a handful of frames per year for commerce.

I feel that a co-op would be a godsend for those of us who might like to build at more than the hobby level, but not as a full-time occupation like our artisan friends here.

What say ye?

[e-RICHIE]

I'd love to see that discussed here and be a part of it if it came to fruition. I'm building frame number three and have an eye toward, perhaps, hanging out a shingle at some point. (Yes, I know three frames does not a competent frame builder make. I'm talking distant future here folks:angel:)

Presently, I make my living as an electrical contractor, actor and musician. My contractor's business liability here in North Carolina is less than $800 a year.

Seems inequitable that I'd need to pay upwards of $1,500 or more to build a handful of frames per year for commerce.

I feel that a co-op would be a godsend for those of us who might like to build at more than the hobby level, but not as a full-time occupation like our artisan friends here.

What say ye?

i might be in the minority here (and there) but i'd rather see you make the
commitment and join "us" rather than find ways to appropriate some of the
professional needs of our trade and filter them out to those who are treating
it like a craft (note: that's me generalizing atmo). unlike some other handmade
goods that serve, shall we say, more decorative elements, a bicycle is a vehicle.
while no one has established minimum standards for framebuilders, having a
policy is one way to show a modicum of responsibility. i am fully aware that
some don't have the cabbage, and others think they make too few to matter,
and others say theirs never fail, and we also have the cat who simply doesn't
want to play ball with the man. no matter how you couch it, making a bicycle
that someone else will ride comes with a price. i can't see how the insurance
industry can come down any lower than $1500 per annum, and i don't even
think they should. there are not <that> many full time pros and even fewer
hobbyists. no matter how many frames one makes, atmo the cost of entry at
$1500 a year for product liability seems reasonable. one can always elect to
fly naked and take the chances. i alienate many when i articulate all this, but
am committed to seeing the trade in a positive light. to me, insurance is part
of that equation atmo.

[zank]

I'm fully on board with e-richie. The thing that haunts me is that most hobby builders build for friends and family. These are the very people you would most want covered in case, God forbid, something goes wrong.

[zank]

Speaking of business, do the independent framebuilders prefer to run the whole show from end-to-end or would some prefer to just build and leave the business/selling/marketing side to someone else?

Is the most enjoyable part the actual building, or perhaps the satisfaction a builder gets working with individual customers and incorporating different ideas (ie. planning/brainstorming), or perhaps just seeing their bikes being ridden/raced?

Since I was quoted in your post, I'll take a stab too. I don't really have a part I like "most". I feel fortunate as a small business owner to get my hands dirty in all parts of the business. I would go crazy if all I did was work at the bench all day, every day. I am a bit of a social butterfly and really enjoy the relationships that come to be from the one-on-one interactions with my customers. I have a natural curiosity towards business and sales. I get a charge out of closing a deal. I enjoy building relationships with vendors. But the real meat for me is the design process, the fabrication and the resulting bike that will hopefully get ridden, maybe get raced, get beat to crap, and be thoroughly enjoyed and worn out by my customer.

It's all good. It's all fun. Some parts I like more than other parts. But I am a control freak and I leave as little as possible to external parties. Someone asked me the other day about why I took the approach I did to building my brand. I was kind of puzzled. "you know, your whole racing/cyclocross schtick." I never really thought of it that way. That was me before I built my first frame. See my "means to an end" thread and you'll see what I mean.

[anthonymaietta]

I'm fully on board with e-richie. The thing that haunts me is that most hobby builders build for friends and family. These are the very people you would most want covered in case, God forbid, something goes wrong.

Zank got me on board with this very early on in my building days...kinda took me under his wing and said this is one of those things that's the "right" thing to do. I treat it as a non-negociable part of being a part of this, wonderfully awesome and amazing, thing we do. Dudes like eRichie and DW and SBA and QBP and S&S and Ventana rear ends and just about any other entity/luxury afforded to us framebuilders by distributors/shows require it these days. If you need another avenue to justify the cost; the mopney saved/made by using the aforementioned resources surely outweighs $1500 on PLI. +what Zank said about friends and family...eek!

Tony

[Shinomaster]

I'm fully on board with e-richie. The thing that haunts me is that most hobby builders build for friends and family. These are the very people you would most want covered in case, God forbid, something goes wrong.

It never occurred to me that you guys had liability insurance.

[Dave Kirk]

It never occurred to me that you guys had liability insurance.

Lots of it. A professional builder has it - period - full stop.

Dave