Police inaction after specific warning

[VertigoCycles]

I wish this was a hypothetical. If a sheriff or detective was warned by two separate people no less, that a person was unstable, had many weapons and was likely to harm someone. They were told where this person was, what kind of weapons they are likely to have and were given evidence of their mental state. The officer responded with something to the effect of "well, it's their second amendment right, what do you want me to do?" Then the person actually did kill someone. What then? Does the police department bear any responsibility? The individual officer?

[vertical_doug]

Actually, this conversation is hypothetical from a legal standpoint because you need to be specific. What weapons, and were these legally obtained? Are any of the weapons illegal? Have they made a specific threat against someone, is there evidence of that specific threat? Is this one off, or a repeated threat. As for evidence of a mental state? That's also a tough one.

You are better off not making this about guns, but the specific threat. Who or what are they specifically targeting and what was the threat? That way it is not about guns, and not about mental health, but prevention of a specific crime threat which should make the police job easier.

It will also very by state.

In your case, the police probably would have to conduct an investigation into the officer and/or police procedures but I doubt they have any liability.

[Peter Polack]

You don't have evidence of a crime in progress, already committed, or imminent. No verifiable direct threats were made. The hands of the police are tied in this case.

It's the price we pay for all the freedoms we enjoy in the U.S. .

[monadnocky]

But hold on. What's legal and what is ethical (or even moral) are two different things. In my profession, I don't need to hear a specific threat to a specific person for it to be reportable, and there's a wide range of scenarios where I'm mandated to report even in some fairly ambiguous situations. Ethical decision making isn't black and white, and I don't think that, just because there was no specific threat made to a specific person with a specific instrument (a gun), it means that the police are off the hook here. Legally, perhaps - I'm certainly not a lawyer. But I am sure that police have their own ethical decision making process, and I'm sure it's certainly more complicated than the above discussion regarding specificity.

Hypothetically, if someone disclosed to me something akin to what Sean discussed above, and I reported it, I'm pretty sure the local constabulary would at least check it out, or keep it on their radar.

[Peter Polack]

But hold on. ..., or keep it on their radar.

All true, but they couldn't arrest the person or confiscate their weapons. From the information given, there are no grounds. However, I would expect one of two things to result:

1. The officer files a report on the complaint that's intentionally so vague so if something eventually happens, they can claim ignorance.

2. They keep a detailed record of the incident(s) so they have a paper trail. If things escalate, reviewing history will provide them with information on the dangers or as a sum total of any events, allow them to arrest or confiscate the weapons depending on the state's laws.

[jimcav]

oregon has a red flag law. you could ask the law enforcement agent why they don't consider the situation to rise to that level. From what I remember from the news, apart for law enforcement triggering the red flag law effects, it can also get started by a family member--so if you aren't related to his person, but are able to express your concerns to someone who is, then there is that possibility (if they listen).

https://www.doj.state.or.us/crime-vi...-red-flag-law/

The only other thought I have is some workplaces, especially federal work places, have violence and safety concerns that can result for psychological fitness for duty assessments if co-workers hear certain threats, behaviors, etc.

as a gun owner, I'm glad to hear there are people who take "see/hear something, say something" seriously. It is awful when there are victims of violence, but worse when after the fact there were signs and no one did anything

[monadnocky]

Re: Peter's post - yes, these are the types of actions I was thinking about. Certainly couldn't make any arrests, but I have seen two instances of guns being "voluntarily" surrendered to the police, when it was made clear to the individual that not voluntarily surrendering their gun(s) would result in increased surveillance and, in one case, would not look good in an upcoming child-custody court date. Both were individuals whom you'd believe would never voluntarily give up their guns - both did. Of course YMMV.
One of these was in upstate New York, one was in New Hampshire.

So, I get that pre-arresting someone isn't a thing. But there's other options out there that local law enforcement can apply.

[mg2ride]

...Does the police department bear any responsibility? The individual officer?

J.C., I certainly hope not.

[vertical_doug]

https://www.twyfordlaw.com/extreme-r...ve-order-laws/

19 States have red flag laws. Since your handle says Portland, the Oregon version doesn't look like a bad option.

[cash]

I wish this was a hypothetical. If a sheriff or detective was warned by two separate people no less, that a person was unstable, had many weapons and was likely to harm someone. They were told where this person was, what kind of weapons they are likely to have and were given evidence of their mental state. The officer responded with something to the effect of "well, it's their second amendment right, what do you want me to do?" Then the person actually did kill someone. What then? Does the police department bear any responsibility? The individual officer?

There is not enough information in your post to answer definitively.

What does "warned" mean? What kind of evidence related to their mental state? How does mental state relate to the threat?

If the officer was given specific, credible and actionable information about an imminent threat and/or a crime (illegal weapons possession, etc) and did nothing, then yes, there could be civil and criminal culpability. But, it would have to be very specific, and very credible, and the officer would have had to failed to act. I'm assuming this involves a mental health situation instead of just a crime. MH issues, minus a crime, are complicated and not strictly a police matter.

In Colorado, there is a "red flag law" (Extreme Risk Protection Order) in which a judge my issue an order that commands individuals to surrender firearms; police may seize the firearms but that requires a search warrant in addition to the ERPO. https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb19-1177

(22 year LEO in Colorado, current police sergeant; former homicide detective, in addition to numerous other assignments)

[VertigoCycles]

There is not enough information in your post to answer definitively.

What does "warned" mean? What kind of evidence related to their mental state? How does mental state relate to the threat?

If the officer was given specific, credible and actionable information about an imminent threat and/or a crime (illegal weapons possession, etc) and did nothing, then yes, there could be civil and criminal culpability. But, it would have to be very specific, and very credible, and the officer would have had to failed to act. I'm assuming this involves a mental health situation instead of just a crime. MH issues, minus a crime, are complicated and not strictly a police matter.

In Colorado, there is a "red flag law" (Extreme Risk Protection Order) in which a judge my issue an order that commands individuals to surrender firearms; police may seize the firearms but that requires a search warrant in addition to the ERPO. https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb19-1177

(22 year LEO in Colorado, current police sergeant; former homicide detective, in addition to numerous other assignments)

my mother was admitted to the ER on christmas with a broken jaw (both sides), broken rib, three broken vertebrae, broken humerus, bruising and a brain bleed. "she fell." They live in a one story. I "fell" numerous times as a kid. The one time I told a teacher the truth about what happened, she told me that I should change my story because I would be taken away from my family. There is no prior record of his abuse, but he's been like this for many decades. Since childhood according to his siblings.

my brother and a hospice worker witnessed him screaming at my mother (who is in late stage alzheimers and confined to a bed) while jerking her head around by jamming his finger in her mouth. The hospice director got involved, advised him to seek mental health counsel. Adult protective services were also called, but would not start an investigation until my mother was back in their house. Over the course of a month, THREE different hospice providers started and then abruptly stopped providing care because they felt their workers were being put into a dangerous situation with a potentially violent person after witnessing his rage fests.

As far as I know, the weapons are all legal and are numerous

[thollandpe]

I’m so sorry, Sean. For all of it. Fuck.

[cash]

my mother was admitted to the ER on christmas with a broken jaw (both sides), broken rib, three broken vertebrae, broken humerus, bruising and a brain bleed. "she fell." They live in a one story. I "fell" numerous times as a kid. The one time I told a teacher the truth about what happened, she told me that I should change my story because I would be taken away from my family. There is no prior record of his abuse, but he's been like this for many decades. Since childhood according to his siblings.

my brother and a hospice worker witnessed him screaming at my mother (who is in late stage alzheimers and confined to a bed) while jerking her head around by jamming his finger in her mouth. The hospice director got involved, advised him to seek mental health counsel. Adult protective services were also called, but would not start an investigation until my mother was back in their house. Over the course of a month, THREE different hospice providers started and then abruptly stopped providing care because they felt their workers were being put into a dangerous situation with a potentially violent person after witnessing his rage fests.

As far as I know, the weapons are all legal and are numerous

That is a terrible situation. I'm sorry you and your family are enduring it. Since it involves domestic violence, the answer to your question will be slightly different. In most (maybe all?) states, a domestic violence report requires an investigation, documentation and an arrest if there is probably cause of a crime, regardless of the wishes of the victim (which differs from other crime, in which the victim must choose to report and classify themselves as a victim). If officers were aware of domestic abuse, and did nothing, then that could lead to civil and criminal liability. In Colorado, her status as a late stage Alzheimers patient would elevate her to a more protected status requiring more intervention from the police.

You could initiate a police investigation. Reports of domestic violence do not have to come from the victim. Anyone with knowledge/evidence of DV may initiate the report with police. Given the interpersonal dynamics of DV, especially over years, it is not unusual that the victim would not report, or even oppose the report. Please report ASAP to your mother's local police and insist on an investigation. Prior to reporting, you could compile a time line of abuse, a witness list, and other evidence (photos, statements, etc). I hate to say this, but the easier you make it for the police the more likely there is to be a thorough investigation. Don't hand over the original documents - keep those for yourself.

I don't know anything specific to Oregon law. But I am happy to provide insight into police procedure. PM is fine to avoid too many details in a public forum.

[VertigoCycles]

Thanks Jason. I'm going to re-read that a few times to make sure I've covered it correctly. This all happened in OH, and I'm in OR...which makes things a bit more difficult to handle

At this point in time, she's safe in a nursing facility. He's gone as of the 16th. Right now priority #1 is to ensure the financing of my mother's care, which is about $9K/mo. Working on getting POA of their finances and in the process discovered that he gave some 18y/o woman access to their checking account and her own credit card. She drained 20K in 2 months and I have yet to finish going through the accounts as I'm somewhat limited by not yet having POA. I have my hands full, but can't shake the feeling that the police and the greater social services in OH really dropped the ball here and I feel that if I am to take some type of legal action, it needs to be ASAP. In the meantime, I'm having to fend off relatives who are circling smaller assets. My father was very boastful of his supposed wealth, but the reality is that there's not much there.

[e-RICHIE]

Sean this makes me sad and mad.
My thoughts are with you and your family.

[j44ke]

Horrific events. Really sorry to hear this. Sounds like you need an good attorney to help with the POA, assets and perhaps guardianship of your mother. Solid representation by a good attorney can help straighten the process out and fend off any grifters or family. None of this is going to be easy, but a lawyer who specializes in elder or a family law with experience with guardianships and estates is going to be valuable, especially when it comes to asset protection and continued health care for your mother. The criminal aspect can be dealt with as an extension of consultation with that attorney who will be able to bring in a criminal lawyer. Here is the list of best elder law lawyers in Ohio:

https://www.bestlawyers.com/united-s...ohio/elder-law

My wife who is an attorney did a quick scan of the list and says this lawyer appears to have excellent credentials and might be a good place to start, even if not in the city in Ohio where your parents are located.

https://hickman-lowder.com/about-hic.../janet-lowder/

[monadnocky]

This is horrible and I'm sorry to hear it. Just awful. Had no idea it was so close to home.

[Peter Polack]

Contact an elder care lawyer.

[Chik]

Sean, I'm very sorry about this.

[Saab2000]

Yikes. This sounds horrific. I hope there’s a special level of hell for these perpetrators of violence against helpless people.