Virus thread, the political one.

[Matthew Strongin]

My sense is that most here are able to work from home, though I may be wrong in that regard. My job wasn't affected as it's "essential", though my company did lay off over 100 people due to reduced demand.

It is easy to dismiss those who want to return to work as 'morons' or 'buffoons' or whatever. But if you're that person who isn't working, who has a mortgage or rent or a car payment, who wonders how they're going to put food on the table.....well, you likely have a much different outlook on things than the person who's still working. I often think that many here don't bother to think about that point of view.

I don't know, most of the people here I know do think about that point of view. They may not agree with the call to end shelter in place orders or think barging into a capital building with rifles in protest is a productive exercise, but that doesn't mean they aren't thinking about the point of view of someone who is out of work and worried. As Flash mentioned, the impacts to business will be there either way. And despite the potential immediate relief of a return to work, there could be long term impacts to doing so that result in even worse outcomes.

And so nobody makes assumptions about my point of view, I am very fortunate to work in an industry that is able to thrive during this crisis (who knows if that will be sustainable, though). But my wife is a part owner in a family business that is currently shuttered. And while it is a second income for us, for the rest of her family it is the only source of income. Their doors are closed and all day every day is an emotional and mental struggle to figure out how to reopen, if they even should, and whether there will be enough business to sustain them to happier days. Then there are the employees...how to keep them on when the SBA loan is insufficient and there's no revenue. My wife knows the smart move is to stay closed because interacting with the public in an enclosed space in a major city that has yet to see any appreciable decline in cases seems nuts. Especially with a small child and elderly family members that we won't be able to avoid once back at work. But then there are those family members who aren't working, have no income and are banking on this business for their entire livelihood. They're torn between the same desire for caution and a desperate need to open the business. So I get it. It's hard. There will be risk for quite some time no matter what. They can't float on savings with no income much longer. But the data is pretty clear...we don't have this under control and exposing themselves to customers is a very risky proposition.

Bingo. As an example, in my county of 26,500 people there are 3 confirmed cases and 0 deaths, according to the state website.

I don't believe there is a one size fits all solution. In my county of 2.7 million people there are 14,500 confirmed cases and 518 deaths, twice as many as the next largest county. This is a significantly higher rate of infection as where you live. It may be safe for people to go back to work in close quarters in your county, but doing so in my county is just going to make this worse. And yet our government officials are moving forward to plans to ease or eliminate restrictions. Businesses will suffer anyway because most people aren't comfortable going shopping or dining, and tourism, our number 1 industry, is basically dead. Employees will still lose jobs and also have an increased risk of exposure, and the crisis will drag on and delay a return to some type of normalcy.

[djg714]

This statement applies to many topics discussed on this site, particularly political ones. The OTHER point of view is attacked, criticized, dismissed, and demeaned.

I find a one sided conversation boring. But perhaps that's just me.

It's always about you Corso.

[caleb]

Personally I think that if one can't make and support their argument without waving a gun in somebody's face they're just lazy.

There's a notable lack of conventional social movement work going on at these protests, at least our local ones.

Most social movements get attention because they manage to organize large groups of people and get them to march together. We as a society generally acknowledge that it's not easy to get X thousand people to show up and do anything in concert, so when it happens we take notice. And there's usually a dramatic storyline to protests, with a wind-up to speechmaking and impassioned exhortations.

With these anti-shutdown protesters, it doesn't seem like any of that is happening. Locally, they're just showing up in front of the governor's mansion with signs. There aren't even chants. They look like a line waiting to go into a big box store on Black Friday. And, at least locally, the media has stopped paying much attention because a handful of people milling around on the sidewalk isn't all that newsworthy. The ones that have continued to get attention have brandished guns. It seems that the guns are standing in for doing the work of mass organizing.

[gregl]

The ones that have continued to get attention have brandished guns. It seems that the guns are standing in for doing the work of mass organizing.

The guns are a means for intimidation where logic and reason fail. Can't reason your way out of a challenge? Then roll out the firearms. It's worked throughout history - at least until someone shows up with more and bigger guns.

Greg

[mzilliox]

It's always about you Corso.

right? im glad im not the only one who sees/thinks this. have another point of view? share it... let the validity of the thought, idea or point do its own speaking. I find there are generally reasons ideas get attacked, while the good ones tend to hold up to scrutiny. bring your ideas, and be ready to defend them, not as gamesmanship, but because thats what people do with ideas.

times are interesting, please do share your ideas, all of them are welcome in these unprecedented times.

Matt makes a good point about being able to see other points of view. in some ways im lucky to have the income still, but the existential threat to society is what worries me. is it a luxury to not worry about myself, but about others? maybe, or maybe thats just always how i have been. ive never been much of a worry to myself, ive always worried more about others around me.

Im worried that people dont understand the implications of a system where less than 2 months of abnormal is almost enough to crash the entire thing. Really, its been less than 2 months, and folks cannot handle 2 months of foreign. this is a fragile system. Do people really want to go back to that? is there something desirable about a system that poor?

or do people want to design a new system that is more sustainable going forward? what might that look like? will it be so service oriented? or will people begin to value durable goods again, and lessen overall consumption of nonessential crap? will folks take up crafting? i know im looking into blacksmithing going forward.

or do we go back to our potential slave wage no healthcare jobs and call ourselves lucky to be working?

interesting times indeed

[vertical_doug]

I think these two videos need to be watched back to back.
My wife showed me this on NHK a couple days ago.

Video shows how quickly coronavirus can spread at a restaurant

Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down Democratic governor's pandemic lockdown order | Daily Mail Online

[vertical_doug]

There's a notable lack of conventional social movement work going on at these protests, at least our local ones.

Most social movements get attention because they manage to organize large groups of people and get them to march together. We as a society generally acknowledge that it's not easy to get X thousand people to show up and do anything in concert, so when it happens we take notice. And there's usually a dramatic storyline to protests, with a wind-up to speechmaking and impassioned exhortations.

With these anti-shutdown protesters, it doesn't seem like any of that is happening. Locally, they're just showing up in front of the governor's mansion with signs. There aren't even chants. They look like a line waiting to go into a big box store on Black Friday. And, at least locally, the media has stopped paying much attention because a handful of people milling around on the sidewalk isn't all that newsworthy. The ones that have continued to get attention have brandished guns. It seems that the guns are standing in for doing the work of mass organizing.

I assumed they are a physical equivalent of a sock puppet on the internet.

[thollandpe]

It is easy to dismiss those who want to return to work as 'morons' or 'buffoons' or whatever. But if you're that person who isn't working, who has a mortgage or rent or a car payment, who wonders how they're going to put food on the table.....well, you likely have a much different outlook on things than the person who's still working. I often think that many here don't bother to think about that point of view.

I hope that anyone here who has used terms like "morons" or "buffoons" has been referring to armed protestors or others acting way out of line (abusing retail workers, for example), and not people who merely want to return to making a living. It seems a long leap from opposing the anti-lockdown protests, which reek of astroturf, to opposing a functioning economy. It reminds me of this:

"One of the uglier tricks employed by those pushing to reopen the country as fast as possible — regardless of the consequences — is to create the impression that social distancing restrictions have unleashed a widespread populist uprising that's rolling across the land."

"Conservative media voices are posing as champions of working people by telling them it's safe for them to return to work, in a tone of faux populist ire."

"Elites in the laptop class can insist on maintaining restrictions, because their digitally-plugged-in livelihoods are largely undisturbed by those restrictions. They are blissfully out of touch with the suffering of working people chafing to get back to real-world jobs."

But this insinuation "doesn't capture the sentiments of the very people whose cause it purports to champion. The data suggests that there just aren't meaningful divisions along class or education lines on these questions."

A class war over social distancing? New data suggests otherwise. | Washington Post

PS Personally, I do not find people here to be lacking in empathy. Even those who may be less tolerant of another's opposing view (who I occasionally chastise). And empathy may not even be needed, as others have noted. In my own immediate family, three households, we are almost evenly split among those called "essential" and still working, laid off and collecting unemployment, and out of work and not getting paid. Thankfully we all have health insurance.

[thollandpe]

It's always about you Corso.

Ease up on that, Deejay Gee.

[marley]

My sense is that the majority of the lucky ones who are working from home right now are also shitting a brick because although some large companies are keeping them employed the demand for certain products/services is dropping and more people will be losing their jobs beyond - retail, hair dressers, food service, hotel, airline etc... so as shouted down already the majority are sensitive to what is going on outside their immediate bubble.

Armed protesters - I am just waiting for one of those morons to pull a Dick Cheney on their fellow protester and then the buffoon( what a great word) gets infected at the hospital and we can all laugh when they die alone. Prying the gun from their cold, dead hands -

For the record I have now lost two people to this shit situation and both of them died alone, one in a hospital and one in Hospice - all this on "face time" with their families.

[guido]

As Unemployment Soars, Lawmakers Push to Cover Workers’ Wages - The New York Times

"Progressive and conservative lawmakers are increasingly pushing for the government to guarantee workers’ incomes, signaling how profoundly the economic debate has shifted during the pandemic."

[davids]

My sense is that most here are able to work from home, though I may be wrong in that regard. My job wasn't affected as it's "essential", though my company did lay off over 100 people due to reduced demand.

It is easy to dismiss those who want to return to work as 'morons' or 'buffoons' or whatever. But if you're that person who isn't working, who has a mortgage or rent or a car payment, who wonders how they're going to put food on the table.....well, you likely have a much different outlook on things than the person who's still working. I often think that many here don't bother to think about that point of view.

This perspective is very easy for me to understand.

If we had a true national leader, I'd like to think that she'd be advocating for this vast population in two ways: First by engaging every weapon in our arsenal to contain and ultimately eliminate this plague, while telling us the plain truth about what is happening and what is being done. Second by advocating for sustained economic support of the jobless, to ensure that they don't lose their homes, health or lives. Only the federal government has the capacity to do this because they can literally print money.

This statement applies to many topics discussed on this site, particularly political ones. The OTHER point of view is attacked, criticized, dismissed, and demeaned.

I find a one sided conversation boring. But perhaps that's just me.

The point of view is not attacked. The problem with so much of what has passed for "conversation" has been finger pointing and "what about"ing that seems to argue that faults on one side excuse fault on the other.

[bigbill]

And meanwhile in South Dakota, Gov. Noem is forcing the Sioux to open up their checkpoints. The Sioux are trying to get people to fill out a health questionnaire each time they enter or leave tribal lands, and restrict entry to essential business unless the tribal government has granted permit. Passing through without stopping is permitted.

Why would the SD gov go after them for that?

The Navajo are isolated in the corners of Arizona, Nevada, Utah, and New Mexico. With the closure of National Parks, the only people traveling in and out are Navajo. I can't help but think that the reason Grand Canyon is not announcing any plans for sequential opening like Arches or Canyonlands is the impact on the Navajo who heavily rely on tourism in that part of Arizona. An open GCNP would bring all kinds of traffic to the area. Last summer I drove to Moab after work and stopped halfway in Kayenta for the night. That is one of the hardest hit areas on the reservation. The culture makes the situation worse, most events are based on gatherings of people in close quarters.

I've always been bothered by the government referring to tribes as a nation without giving them the self-governance of a nation within their boundaries. The closest tribes to me are the Havasupai, Supai, Hualapai, and Navajo. Of the four, the Hualapai have the best governing structure. The Supai are just a pandemic away from wiping out the entire tribe due to the shallow gene pool. That particular tribe is in the Grand Canyon and requires permits to visit. They have the highest incident of diabetes of any tribe.

[HorsCat]

This statement applies to many topics discussed on this site, particularly political ones. The OTHER point of view is attacked, criticized, dismissed, and demeaned.

I find a one sided conversation boring. But perhaps that's just me.

If you can present a cogent, fact-based argument as to why Trump's handling of the pandemic has been anything other than an unmitigated disaster, clusterfuck and case study in exactly what NOT to do, please don't be bashful. IMO, Salon Mods do an excellent job of allowing the discussion of contentious subjects and keeping participants in line.

[jimcav]

My sense is

For the record I have now lost two people to this shit situation and both of them died alone, one in a hospital and one in Hospice - all this on "face time" with their families.

so sorry to read this. i have one family member at super high risk, and it is a constant source of worry that she will get exposed. I wish you strength to cope with the losses.

[marley]

so sorry to read this. i have one family member at super high risk, and it is a constant source of worry that she will get exposed. I wish you strength to cope with the losses.

thanks - it was a blessing for one as it ended her suffering early, but not being able to visit someone who was 30 min away for the last 4 weeks of her life was tough, it was my mother-law, we had some closure with a quick blessing outside the church (Catholics love that shit) while sitting our cars and then a brief grave side service. 6 Grandsons as pall bearers (my 2 boys 13 and 14) with a limit of no more than 12 people all in mask - it was like scene from a burial during the Spanish Flu and to top it off the grounds crew were dressed in full tyvek suites with high end respirator masks - the weather was nice

[choke]

It's nice to see that many of you are considering the other viewpoint that I mentioned.

What the "my freedoms" crowd hasn't thought through is that this is all ruined one way or another

I don't know anyone too keen to go sit in a movie theater or on an airplane anytime soon, and until that kind of consumer comfort and confidence comes back, ain't none of this getting fixed economically.

Sadly I think that you are correct. It's going to take a long time....if ever....for things to go back to what they were a few months ago.

I don't believe there is a one size fits all solution. In my county of 2.7 million people there are 14,500 confirmed cases and 518 deaths, twice as many as the next largest county. This is a significantly higher rate of infection as where you live. It may be safe for people to go back to work in close quarters in your county, but doing so in my county is just going to make this worse. And yet our government officials are moving forward to plans to ease or eliminate restrictions. Businesses will suffer anyway because most people aren't comfortable going shopping or dining, and tourism, our number 1 industry, is basically dead. Employees will still lose jobs and also have an increased risk of exposure, and the crisis will drag on and delay a return to some type of normalcy.

That is the problem, in some areas it's OK to loosen things and in others it's not. Government isn't good at letting some people do things while keeping others from doing the same thing....they want a 'one size fits all' solution. Not to mention that people don't like being told that they can't do what the people 3 counties away can do....

The guns are a means for intimidation where logic and reason fail. Can't reason your way out of a challenge? Then roll out the firearms. It's worked throughout history - at least until someone shows up with more and bigger guns.

Greg

I think that they're carrying the firearms because they know they will get noticed and get attention, which gets their message out more. But what do I know?

[choke]

This statement applies to many topics discussed on this site, particularly political ones. The OTHER point of view is attacked, criticized, dismissed, and demeaned.

I find a one sided conversation boring. But perhaps that's just me.

It's always about you Corso.

In a way, your point was proved.

right? im glad im not the only one who sees/thinks this. have another point of view? share it... let the validity of the thought, idea or point do its own speaking. I find there are generally reasons ideas get attacked, while the good ones tend to hold up to scrutiny. bring your ideas, and be ready to defend them, not as gamesmanship, but because thats what people do with ideas.

The point of view is not attacked. The problem with so much of what has passed for "conversation" has been finger pointing and "what about"ing that seems to argue that faults on one side excuse fault on the other.

There are of course times when other points of view are discussed politely. But there are often times when that point of view is ignored and the author is attacked personally. Perhaps I notice it more since my political opinions are generally not in agreement with the majority. If you look back through this thread you can see where it happened to one member so often that he finally quit participating. It's not the first time something like that has happened and I'm sure it won't be the last.....in fact, it's a big factor in why I seldom participate in political discussions here. I haven't looked but I would guess that before yesterday and Beatnik's post, one would have to go back 25 pages or more to find a post that wasn't essentially reinforcing the opinion that Trump is a moron.

----------

And for the record, I think that Trump has done a terrible job of handling this. But that's also been pretty much the case for all but a handful of nations. Unlike most of you, I don't have a belief that someone else in the White House would have handled things in a far superior way. I'm sure they would have done some things differently but I think overall we would be more or less in the same place simply because we as a nation were not adequately prepared for something of this magnitude. But that's only my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it....

[choke]

For the record I have now lost two people to this shit situation and both of them died alone, one in a hospital and one in Hospice - all this on "face time" with their families.

You have my condolences.

[htwoopup]

to what @choke said...I do think about that point of view. But I think the more important thing, which he alluded to, is WHERE that point of view is coming from which many here have recognized is the economic issue especially to them personally in the very powerful “how the eff am I going to eat and feed my family”?

But when I think of the point of view, knowing where those that hold it are coming from, what I do NOT understand is their argument and anger about “opening up”.

Quite simply, I think they are getting angry and attacking the wrong thing...they are not attacking with their thinking and their emotions and beliefs what the real problem is.

The problem is NOT the so called lockdowns.

The problem is that, in the USA, there is one political way of thinking which makes it so that the USA is the only country of the big wealthy countries that has not figured out how to support these people until things get back to a new normal.

There is such a political aversion to “unemployment benefits” “socialism” etc that the society which is what we are in and what a government is, is prevented from helping that society to survive.

It isn’t about a lockdown and choosing feed my family/ risk my life vs. go hungry and lose the house.

It is about society as a community doing what is right to help all members out and make sure that we all get through this together.

Simply, the ending the lockdown is not the solution as it will cause more death...the solution is ending the refusal of certain politicians to help all members of society in a meaningful way without getting their panties in a bunch about some absurd political words about capitalism or socialism or voting by mail is fraud or welfare moms or any of those other political bull crap that is only meant to keep people down. You can build roads, in a way those are socialist and you can do payments more than “6 months and too bad on health insurance” and still be an American, still be a capitalist.

Bizarrely, to a large degree, those who are fighting the lockdown for understandable reasons but they are fighting the false cause of those reasons would self-identify with the very political thinking that is causing them to suffer justifiable fear of hunger and homelessness.