REI places "HOLD" on brands owned by gun manufacturer Vista

[murphy]

If you've got a CCW, you've got the training too.

I know my buddy the former town cop fired his pistol 2x year to qualify with it. That's not 'training.' I don't remember ever hearing about him doing any kind of 'tactical' training after the academy. As evidenced by the SF cops firing 65x and not hitting anything, even the cops need constant refreshing in a tactical situation.

M

Actually at least 10 states allow concealed carry without any sort of training or permit so that isn't necessarily the case.

[Gummee]

That is a tired and false analogy given that cars are not designed to kill people. Assault style weapons are literally designed to be better for killing hence why a majority of the last large shootings have used them.

No, they're not designed to kill, but last I checked, dead is dead no matter how it happens.

So, since we all know dead is dead, let's ban the scary looking cars on the road so we can all be safer.

M

edited to add: ALL y'all keep forgetting that all a firearm is is a better way to throw a rock. Without practice you can't hit squat with either a rock or a firearm. In the case of the LV shooter, he had LOTS of people to hit in a small area. All he had to do was spray and pray. IDK what happened inside the school(s) we keep hearing about, but I'd guess that the shooters weren't actually very good marksmen either. ...but it doesn't take a lot of skill to aim at a group of people with a pistol, rifle, or shotgun to kill a bunch when they're compressed into a group.

Oh, and I saw that the FLA shooter WASN'T using high capacity magazines. Not that it brings back dead kids, but it does remove some of the 'ammunition' to use a pun for the banning of high capacity mags.

[murphy]

No, they're not designed to kill, but last I checked, dead is dead no matter how it happens.

So, since we all know dead is dead, let's ban the scary looking cars on the road so we can all be safer.

M

edited to add: ALL y'all keep forgetting that all a firearm is is a better way to throw a rock. Without practice you can't hit squat with either a rock or a firearm. In the case of the LV shooter, he had LOTS of people to hit in a small area. All he had to do was spray and pray. IDK what happened inside the school(s) we keep hearing about, but I'd guess that the shooters weren't actually very good marksmen either. ...but it doesn't take a lot of skill to aim at a group of people with a pistol, rifle, or shotgun to kill a bunch when they're compressed into a group.

Oh, and I saw that the FLA shooter WASN'T using high capacity magazines. Not that it brings back dead kids, but it does remove some of the 'ammunition' to use a pun for the banning of high capacity mags.

No actually, the purpose is very important. Lots of things can kill, but some things are designed with that in mind. Knives have utility, cars have utility, a bicycle has utility. A gun's purpose is for killing. A thrown rock and a gun firing bullets are orders of magnitudes different. Even if you have major league pitcher speed, throwing a rock at someone's head is only a maybe on them dying. Firing a bullet is an almost guarantee unless you have a medical miracle. Please come back when there is a mass stoning and then you can try that again.

He may not have been using high capacity magazines, but when it takes seconds to load a new one it doesn't really matter; a high capacity magazine just allows you to put more bullets downrange before having to reload. What is the argument for high capacity mags? They aren't protected by the constitution and I just stated their purpose which should have no part in a civilians life.

[Scott G.]

That is a tired and false analogy given that cars are not designed to kill people. Assault style weapons are literally designed to be better for killing hence why a majority of the last large shootings have used them.

So I see a solution, use a strict originalist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, any weapon available in 1789 is legal.
All other guns are banned. I'm going to place an order with George Suiter for a Ferguson Rifle forthwith.

See you all the North American Handmade Gun Show.

[Gummee]

So I see a solution, use a strict originalist interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, any weapon available in 1789 is legal.
All other guns are banned. I'm going to place an order with George Suiter for a Ferguson Rifle forthwith.

See you all the North American Handmade Gun Show.

So, if you're going to be 'originalist' let's do away with everything but a manual printing press. After all... that's the only technology in the constitutional era.

I wasn't there so don't know how much press the Puckle Gun got, but it wasn't a complettely unknown thing to the people in the era

M

[Matthew Strongin]

No, they're not designed to kill, but last I checked, dead is dead no matter how it happens.

So, since we all know dead is dead, let's ban the scary looking cars on the road so we can all be safer.

M

edited to add: ALL y'all keep forgetting that all a firearm is is a better way to throw a rock. Without practice you can't hit squat with either a rock or a firearm. In the case of the LV shooter, he had LOTS of people to hit in a small area. All he had to do was spray and pray. IDK what happened inside the school(s) we keep hearing about, but I'd guess that the shooters weren't actually very good marksmen either. ...but it doesn't take a lot of skill to aim at a group of people with a pistol, rifle, or shotgun to kill a bunch when they're compressed into a group.

Oh, and I saw that the FLA shooter WASN'T using high capacity magazines. Not that it brings back dead kids, but it does remove some of the 'ammunition' to use a pun for the banning of high capacity mags.

Better way to throw a rock? Scary looking cars equivalent to assault rifles in intent and purpose? Puns about dead kids and ammunition? All your glib, reductive and hyperbolic arguments do is strengthen the stereotype of head-in-the-sand gun nuts.

[Gummee]

No actually, the purpose is very important. Lots of things can kill, but some things are designed with that in mind. Knives have utility, cars have utility, a bicycle has utility. A gun's purpose is for killing. A thrown rock and a gun firing bullets are orders of magnitudes different. Even if you have major league pitcher speed, throwing a rock at someone's head is only a maybe on them dying. Firing a bullet is an almost guarantee unless you have a medical miracle. Please come back when there is a mass stoning and then you can try that again.

He may not have been using high capacity magazines, but when it takes seconds to load a new one it doesn't really matter; a high capacity magazine just allows you to put more bullets downrange before having to reload. What is the argument for high capacity mags? They aren't protected by the constitution and I just stated their purpose which should have no part in a civilians life.

Have you actually fired a rifle or pistol?

M

[Gummee]

Better way to throw a rock? Scary looking cars equivalent to assault rifles in intent and purpose? Puns about dead kids and ammunition? All your glib, reductive and hyperbolic arguments do is strengthen the stereotype of head-in-the-sand gun nuts.

The only problem with your insult is that I don't own one firearm much less many like a 'gun nut.'

I don't belong to the NRA.

I DO however believe in the Constitutional Rights. There's a reason the founding fathers put (especially) the 2nd in there.

M

edited to add: hands/feet, spears, sling, bow and arrow, firearm. That's the lineage of firearms. So yeah, firearms are just a better way to throw a rock.

[murphy]

Have you actually fired a rifle or pistol?

M

Quite often actually. I grew up on a farm where we had a multitude of guns. Model 1911, some six-shooters, so many different kinds of shotguns in varying styles (over-under, pump action, semi-auto), rifles of differing calibers. I personally have not fired an AR style rifle, but have friends who do and say that the recoil is next to nothing compared to their other rifles.

[C.Dyer]

I know my buddy the former town cop fired his pistol 2x year to qualify with it. That's not 'training.' I don't remember ever hearing about him doing any kind of 'tactical' training after the academy. As evidenced by the SF cops firing 65x and not hitting anything, even the cops need constant refreshing in a tactical situation.

After a whole thread of trotting out false equivalences, disingenuous reframings of the issues, bad analogies, jokes in poor taste, and addled Right Wing nutjob talking points, this quoted passage seems like a pretty big self-own.

I mean, "even cops aren't very good at shooting" hardly seems like a good argument for keeping guns in the hands of civiians...

[Matthew Strongin]

The only problem with your insult is that I don't own one firearm much less many like a 'gun nut.'

I don't belong to the NRA.

I DO however believe in the Constitutional Rights. There's a reason the founding fathers put (especially) the 2nd in there.

M

edited to add: hands/feet, spears, sling, bow and arrow, firearm. That's the lineage of firearms. So yeah, firearms are just a better way to throw a rock.

Great. So you are deviating from the broadly accepted definition of a firearm for the purpose of making a reductive point about the second amendment, when even constitutional scholars aren't on the same page about how 2A should be interpreted with regards to restrictions on the right to bear arms. I believe in Constitutional Rights as well. Just as much as I believe in the Constitution as a living document. It's why we can't own people, why people other than white men can vote, and why there are limits on presidential terms. To think the founding fathers put 2A in the bill of rights to ensure people can buy high powered, semi-automatic rifles at sporting goods stores is nuts.

[rwsaunders]

In Pennsylvania there is no training component associated with being issued a CCW...just an application and a maximum 45 day background check and 19 states share reciprocity with Pennsylvania as well. Don't worry if you live in Alaska, Maine or Vermont, as it looks like from what I've read that you don't need a license to carry.

Carrying Firearms in Pennsylvania

https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/Medi...ty_Agreements/

[Gummee]

Quite often actually. I grew up on a farm where we had a multitude of guns. Model 1911, some six-shooters, so many different kinds of shotguns in varying styles (over-under, pump action, semi-auto), rifles of differing calibers. I personally have not fired an AR style rifle, but have friends who do and say that the recoil is next to nothing compared to their other rifles.

They're not bad. Shotguns kick harder.

So... getting back to the scary black rifle... Since you seem to know about firearms. The 5.56mm round is a glorified .22. Great for small game up to maybe a big dog-sized critter like a coyote Great for reducing the combat load of a soldier over the M14 or M1A1. Kicks less than either. Also good for teaching draftees to shoot because the rifle doesn't kick much. ...even tho by the end of my time on the range, my nose hurt from the kick. Nose on the charging handle after all...

It still takes skill to shoot someone in a place that will do more than injure them with the 5.56mm round. The .308 hits lots harder. The 7.62 round from the AK series of rifles does too.

All in all, despite it's looks, the AR-style rifle isn't that powerful a rifle. Worst of all from the 2A supporter's side, the 'assault rifle' isn't used in all that many shootings. 3% of shootings are committed with a rifle. Only 14% of mass shootings are committed with an 'assault rifle.' The rest are handguns (largest proportion) or another firearm.

So, along with blaming the NRA for having an excessive influence, let's blame a firearm that's used in 3% of ALL shootings. Numbers be damned! Those evil black rifles are bad and should be banned! Let's not discuss what got us to the problem. Let's not discuss societal factors that continue to mold mass shooters or bombers or people that drive trucks into bike lanes. Nope. Let's blame the evil black rifle and the NRA for our problems.

It isn't OUR fault! It's the NRA! It's the 'gun It isn't our fault! It's the toxic masculinity.

I got news for ya. It IS our fault. It's society's fault. We need to stop focusing on the thing and start focusing on how to fix society so we don't have people willing to kill to prove a point, to get even, to do whatever.

M

[Gummee]

Great. So you are deviating from the broadly accepted definition of a firearm for the purpose of making a reductive point about the second amendment, when even constitutional scholars aren't on the same page about how 2A should be interpreted with regards to restrictions on the right to bear arms. I believe in Constitutional Rights as well. Just as much as I believe in the Constitution as a living document. It's why we can't own people, why people other than white men can vote, and why there are limits on presidential terms. To think the founding fathers put 2A in the bill of rights to ensure people can buy high powered, semi-automatic rifles at sporting goods stores is nuts.

Why do you think that's so strange? People were buying the most technologically advance weapon they could afford then too.

Revolvers came after single shot pistols. Semi-auto pistols came after revolvers. The same way that single shot smooth bores gave way to rifles which gave way to semi-autos.

M

[Matthew Strongin]

They're not bad. Shotguns kick harder.

So... getting back to the scary black rifle... Since you seem to know about firearms. The 5.56mm round is a glorified .22. Great for small game up to maybe a big dog-sized critter like a coyote Great for reducing the combat load of a soldier over the M14 or M1A1. Kicks less than either. Also good for teaching draftees to shoot because the rifle doesn't kick much. ...even tho by the end of my time on the range, my nose hurt from the kick. Nose on the charging handle after all...

It still takes skill to shoot someone in a place that will do more than injure them with the 5.56mm round. The .308 hits lots harder. The 7.62 round from the AK series of rifles does too.

All in all, despite it's looks, the AR-style rifle isn't that powerful a rifle. Worst of all from the 2A supporter's side, the 'assault rifle' isn't used in all that many shootings. 3% of shootings are committed with a rifle. Only 14% of mass shootings are committed with an 'assault rifle.' The rest are handguns (largest proportion) or another firearm.

So, along with blaming the NRA for having an excessive influence, let's blame a firearm that's used in 3% of ALL shootings. Numbers be damned! Those evil black rifles are bad and should be banned! Let's not discuss what got us to the problem. Let's not discuss societal factors that continue to mold mass shooters or bombers or people that drive trucks into bike lanes. Nope. Let's blame the evil black rifle and the NRA for our problems.

It isn't OUR fault! It's the NRA! It's the 'gun It isn't our fault! It's the toxic masculinity.

I got news for ya. It IS our fault. It's society's fault. We need to stop focusing on the thing and start focusing on how to fix society so we don't have people willing to kill to prove a point, to get even, to do whatever.

M

The only people reducing this issue to that scary black rifle are people that are trying to steer the conversation away from a sensible discussion about gun control. It can be BOTH a matter of addressing the ease with which guns can be attained AND a matter of addressing whatever societal factors make mass shootings the de rigueur heinous action for the unhinged. It's worth noting that you should read some of the articles posted above, particularly those that show mental illness isn't the root culprit. Or are you the 'numbers be damned' adherent? So, if it's not the scary black rifle and it's not mental health, what do you think are the societal problems that need to be fixed?

In case I'm not being clear, the issue isn't the AR style rifles in isolation. It's the overwhelming number of guns in this country, the ease with which they are procured by people who have no business getting them, and the overly casual culture we have towards weapons as a way of life. The numbers are clear. The USA has a proportionate number of societal problems as other countries, particularly around mental health and crime rates, BUT we have a disproportionately high number of guns and a disproportionately high number of gun deaths. So, since you're the numbers guy, what's going on?

[Matthew Strongin]

Why do you think that's so strange? People were buying the most technologically advance weapon they could afford then too.

Revolvers came after single shot pistols. Semi-auto pistols came after revolvers. The same way that single shot smooth bores gave way to rifles which gave way to semi-autos.

M

So then I guess you feel that there should be no restrictions on weaponry in the hands of the people? You know, since it's just the advancement of technology.

[murphy]

They're not bad. Shotguns kick harder.

So... getting back to the scary black rifle... Since you seem to know about firearms. The 5.56mm round is a glorified .22. Great for small game up to maybe a big dog-sized critter like a coyote Great for reducing the combat load of a soldier over the M14 or M1A1. Kicks less than either. Also good for teaching draftees to shoot because the rifle doesn't kick much. ...even tho by the end of my time on the range, my nose hurt from the kick. Nose on the charging handle after all...

It still takes skill to shoot someone in a place that will do more than injure them with the 5.56mm round. The .308 hits lots harder. The 7.62 round from the AK series of rifles does too.

All in all, despite it's looks, the AR-style rifle isn't that powerful a rifle. Worst of all from the 2A supporter's side, the 'assault rifle' isn't used in all that many shootings. 3% of shootings are committed with a rifle. Only 14% of mass shootings are committed with an 'assault rifle.' The rest are handguns (largest proportion) or another firearm.

So, along with blaming the NRA for having an excessive influence, let's blame a firearm that's used in 3% of ALL shootings. Numbers be damned! Those evil black rifles are bad and should be banned! Let's not discuss what got us to the problem. Let's not discuss societal factors that continue to mold mass shooters or bombers or people that drive trucks into bike lanes. Nope. Let's blame the evil black rifle and the NRA for our problems.

It isn't OUR fault! It's the NRA! It's the 'gun It isn't our fault! It's the toxic masculinity.

I got news for ya. It IS our fault. It's society's fault. We need to stop focusing on the thing and start focusing on how to fix society so we don't have people willing to kill to prove a point, to get even, to do whatever.

M

While in terms of mass there is little difference with a .22, the biggest difference is in velocity. With the higher velocity, the kinetic energy of the round is amplified meaning it does more damage. Just because it is only a smaller percentage of shootings doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be addressed. Any improvement should be strived for as those percentage points are people’s lives.

But see Matt’s response in regards to everything else as he said it better than I could have.

[Gummee]

So then I guess you feel that there should be no restrictions on weaponry in the hands of the people? You know, since it's just the advancement of technology.

AS LONG AS you have the legal right to own a weapon? Sure. The people that are legally allowed to own firearms are usually the least likely to use them.

Let's put this in another perspective: there are what 310 million firearms in the US. 310 MILLION! The numbers break down to appx 114 million handguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million shotguns. That's appx 1 firearm per person in the us. That there are 13000 firearm related deaths in the US is a piss-poor number. BUT... since 62% of firearm deaths are suicides That leaves appx 38% of deaths are homicides or appx 5000 deaths annually. 5000 people per year are killed by firearms that someone else is shooting.

These firearm statistics reflects not just the availability of firearms, but a willingness to use them. That willingness to use them is part of the problem.

Having said that, being killed by someone firing a firearm isn't even in the top 10 things that kill the most people in the US every year. Link

...but... we need to do SOMETHING! I'd agree. What is that something that is effective, doesn't trample on people's rights or Rights, and actually addresses the issues rather than is just a knee jerk reaction?

M



Read me

[Gummee]

read me too

M

[murphy]

AS LONG AS you have the legal right to own a weapon? Sure. The people that are legally allowed to own firearms are usually the least likely to use them.

Let's put this in another perspective: there are what 310 million firearms in the US. 310 MILLION! The numbers break down to appx 114 million handguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million shotguns. That's appx 1 firearm per person in the us. That there are 13000 firearm related deaths in the US is a piss-poor number. BUT... since 62% of firearm deaths are suicides That leaves appx 38% of deaths are homicides or appx 5000 deaths annually. 5000 people per year are killed by firearms that someone else is shooting.

These firearm statistics reflects not just the availability of firearms, but a willingness to use them. That willingness to use them is part of the problem.

Having said that, being killed by someone firing a firearm isn't even in the top 10 things that kill the most people in the US every year. Link

...but... we need to do SOMETHING! I'd agree. What is that something that is effective, doesn't trample on people's rights or Rights, and actually addresses the issues rather than is just a knee jerk reaction?

M



Read me

But owning AR style rifles isn’t guaranteed by the Constitution. They have in fact been banned before.

Also Americans have been willing to use firearms for as long as the country has been around. Try googling a history of shootings in the US. But guns have gotten more efficient meaning the death toll has gone up.