Timepieces

[dashDustin]

Rolex Explorer II 42mm 216570

it's pretty much the only Rolex I want. Polar dial, fat hands. it's really the orange hand that does it for me. much more visible. especially against the white. but, alas....$7k on the best of days. and they're a dime a dozen at $7700.

[NYCfixie]

...patek and rolex decided to clean up distribution and limit supply. that doesn't mean they're sought after more. they are harder to buy cuz they're producing fewer units and preserving margin. there was a time when you could walk into any ad and get 20-30% off a sub or nautilus without even asking....

...i justify it by telling my wife that i will pass them on to our sons (the patek marketing works!)...

Rolex has forever controlled their authorized dealers. Many dealerships have been pulled over the years if ADs dump undesirable watches (i.e. 31mm datejusts) onto the grey market and/or do not follow other dealership rules. I know you have mentioned this in past threads "there was a time when you could walk into any ad and get 20-30% off a sub" but in at least the past 30 years, a person could not go into a Rolex authorized dealer and get the kind of discount you mention. If they could, the grey market would not exist. You have not given any proof that you or anyone you know actually received that kind of discount from an AD. Maybe a repeat customer can receive a large discount as part of a larger sale that included jewelry but as for Rolex products, Rolex is rather clear in that ADs may not discount more than 10% on watches.

This is not some conspiracy that ADs use to try and keep prices high but rather a part of the dealer agreement they have with Rolex. It is also why you never see ADs listing in-stock watches on their websites or ADs informing non-local and/or new customers over the phone what watches they have in-stock. If that were the case, customers would be flying all over the country to get in-demand watches available at any AD. Rolex wants ADs to service local (and repeat) customers only and within their pre-approved market area rather than sell a watch to any hooligan with a wad full of cash.

As for production, if you look up the COSC certifications you will see that each and every year Rolex produces more watches than the prior year. Rolex may not be making enough to keep up with demand but to say they are controlling the market by producing fewer watches is incorrect.

And yes, Rolex and Patek marketing plays a big role in all of this but they do both make great watches each in their own way.

[Matthew Strongin]

basing a watch purchase on whether it will hold value in the future is pretty silly. no way how to handicap how the market will view a watch in the future. no different than cars (e.g., i shoulda kept my 997.2 manual turbo). also basing "value" on what you get for trade-in is silly, too. you lose the wholesale/retail spread as soon as you pay for it. could you sell a steel skydweller with the blue face for what you paid for it? sure, because they are in limited such limited supply...

there are 2 ways you can make money selling watches: high volume or high margins. patek and rolex decided to clean up distribution and limit supply. that doesn't mean they're sought after more. they are harder to buy cuz they're producing fewer units and preserving margin. there was a time when you could walk into any ad and get 20-30% off a sub or nautilus without even asking. to say panerai and breitling are in decline isn't really a fair characterization...they could easily follow suit, but they're taking a different path to profitability.

buy a watch cuz you like the design ethos and wear it. i justify it by telling my wife that i will pass them on to our sons (the patek marketing works!)

Rolex and Patek are definitely sought after more. In stores that carry Rolex and other brands, Rolex outsells anything else by a large margin. They're harder to come by because many watches are sold before they even make it into the case. It's not that they're producing less or holding back product to drive demand. ADs pulled back on discounting because demand went through the roof and they didn't need to discount anymore. A few years ago it was just the Daytona that had that kind of demand, but it's now spread to pretty much all the sport models and some of the Datejust models as well. Ask an AD who sells Rolex and other watches what brand most people ask for and they'll pretty much universally tell you it's Rolex. If Panerai and Breitling could figure out how to pull of what Rolex did with driving such huge demand, I'm sure they would.

Patek is a different story because the watches have always been produced in much smaller quantities. That's by design. The demand is also smaller because the price of entry is higher than most anything else, with a few notable exceptions.

[NYCfixie]

it's pretty much the only Rolex I want. Polar dial, fat hands. it's really the orange hand that does it for me. much more visible. especially against the white. but, alas....$7k on the best of days. and they're a dime a dozen at $7700.

[funcrusher]

Rolex has forever controlled their authorized dealers. Many dealerships have been pulled over the years if ADs dump undesirable watches (i.e. 31mm datejusts) onto the grey market and/or do not follow other dealership rules. I know you have mentioned this in past threads "there was a time when you could walk into any ad and get 20-30% off a sub" but in at least the past 30 years, a person could not go into a Rolex authorized dealer and get the kind of discount you mention. If they could, the grey market would not exist. You have not given any proof that you or anyone you know actually received that kind of discount from an AD. Maybe a repeat customer can receive a large discount as part of a larger sale that included jewelry but as for Rolex products, Rolex is rather clear in that ADs may not discount more than 10% on watches.

This is not some conspiracy that ADs use to try and keep prices high but rather a part of the dealer agreement they have with Rolex. It is also why you never see ADs listing in-stock watches on their websites or ADs informing non-local and/or new customers over the phone what watches they have in-stock. If that were the case, customers would be flying all over the country to get in-demand watches available at any AD. Rolex wants ADs to service local (and repeat) customers only and within their pre-approved market area rather than sell a watch to any hooligan with a wad full of cash.

As for production, if you look up the COSC certifications you will see that each and every year Rolex produces more watches than the prior year. Rolex may not be making enough to keep up with demand but to say they are controlling the market by producing fewer watches is incorrect.

And yes, Rolex and Patek marketing plays a big role in all of this but they do both make great watches each in their own way.

to clarify, i meant production relative to demand...i bot a gmt master ii and date just in the late 90s at 20% off at wempe on 5th avenue...more recently i purchased a seadweller deepsea also at a discount...i couldnt do that today

i don't think it is a conspiracy...it is smart business

[King Of Dirk]

The Gucci active wear line is the best thing in high fashion IMO. This $3600 jacket is so hot right now!!

Kool Moe Dee called. He wants his sunglasses back.

[funcrusher]

Rolex and Patek are definitely sought after more. In stores that carry Rolex and other brands, Rolex outsells anything else by a large margin. They're harder to come by because many watches are sold before they even make it into the case. It's not that they're producing less or holding back product to drive demand. ADs pulled back on discounting because demand went through the roof and they didn't need to discount anymore. A few years ago it was just the Daytona that had that kind of demand, but it's now spread to pretty much all the sport models and some of the Datejust models as well. Ask an AD who sells Rolex and other watches what brand most people ask for and they'll pretty much universally tell you it's Rolex. If Panerai and Breitling could figure out how to pull of what Rolex did with driving such huge demand, I'm sure they would.

Patek is a different story because the watches have always been produced in much smaller quantities. That's by design. The demand is also smaller because the price of entry is higher than most anything else, with a few notable exceptions.

rolex outsells everything because it is the bmw of watches...a great watch at an attainable price...the first nice brand people learn about...the cerachrom daytona certainly kicked off the sport watch surge recently, but i am quite certain that they could produce more if they wanted to...same more recently for the pepsi gmt with the jubilee bracelet...and the blue face skydweller i mentioned...these hard to get watches create a halo for the rest of the brand

ap is trying to go the pp route as we speak. i got a royal oak offshore 15 years ago (from my wife) at 30% off from wempe on 5th. no way you'd get that discount now. and they're introducing boutique only models that end up going for msrp+ (like my ceramic diver) to create a similar halo.

patek has been a different story, but nautilus and aquanauts (the somewhat attainable sports watches) in particular have spiked in popularity recently. you could walk into a dealer and buy a new nautilus or aquanaut in the 90s. now even if you have a good AD relationship, it'll take some effort.

and i wouldn't generalize panerai...there are some hard to source references

breitling has never been in the same category (altho i do like my navitimer)...it's a starter brand so it relies more on volume

what i really want now is a stainless jlc master perpetual (also boutique only)

[choke]

Check any of the major pre-owned online sellers and you will see most Panerai watches (save truly vintage exceptional pieces) are "on-sale" and ask about trade-in or direct sale prices and you will see how little you get. Those Panerai pieces shown above, are remaining new stock from my authorized dealer who decided to drop the line because they were not selling. In the last few weeks those specific pieces have dropped from 30% off, to 40% off, and now at 50% off they just can't get rid of them. This is what gave me pause about buying one even though I like the GMT.

And what brands are your reference points? What many of us think as quality brands and models may no longer be "in vogue" anymore and as such are "in decline".

I don't think it's fair to compare any other brand to Rolex or Patek when it comes to the secondary market. The prices for used watches from those two are the exception rather than the rule.

I'll agree that Panerai may not be as hot as they once were but I still contend that they hold their value better than most other brands such as Omega, UN, Blancpain, JLC, Breguet, IWC, GP, etc. etc. etc.

[Matthew Strongin]

rolex outsells everything because it is the bmw of watches...a great watch at an attainable price...the first nice brand people learn about...the cerachrom daytona certainly kicked off the sport watch surge recently, but i am quite certain that they could produce more if they wanted to...same more recently for the pepsi gmt with the jubilee bracelet...and the blue face skydweller i mentioned...these hard to get watches create a halo for the rest of the brand

ap is trying to go the pp route as we speak. i got a royal oak offshore 15 years ago (from my wife) at 30% off from wempe on 5th. no way you'd get that discount now. and they're introducing boutique only models that end up going for msrp+ (like my ceramic diver) to create a similar halo.

patek has been a different story, but nautilus and aquanauts (the somewhat attainable sports watches) in particular have spiked in popularity recently. you could walk into a dealer and buy a new nautilus or aquanaut in the 90s. now even if you have a good AD relationship, it'll take some effort.

and i wouldn't generalize panerai...there are some hard to source references

breitling has never been in the same category (altho i do like my navitimer)...it's a starter brand so it relies more on volume

what i really want now is a stainless jlc master perpetual (also boutique only)

One other thing with Rolex is the that the construction is generally better than it's competitors for the same price. Their bracelets and clasps, in particular, are well beyond most other brands. If you're a jeweler in the watch business, they're the brand to have.

AP makes some really great watches. The boutique thing is interesting. Many brands are moving to a boutique first distribution model, shutting down ADs and creating those boutique only models. I'm curious to see how it plays out. I think some will thrive, particularly those brands with the kind of draw that will bring people in for the tailored experience. AP, A. Lange, maybe a couple others. But I think plenty of nice brands that would do well in a store with a large variety, where a customer may stumble across a watch they love without great brand familiarity (like who doesn't want a Zenith El Primero after trying one on), will fail to pull off the boutique model. Tag, for example, makes great watches at a variety of price points and was one of the first major brands to start pulling out of ADs in favor of their own stores. Here in Miami, their boutiques are empty and the few remaining ADs have started to give up on selling them. I don't think they'll be alone in their struggles.

Rolex and Patek, interestingly enough, are still committed to supporting the independent jeweler and network of ADs. Even though they've pulled back on how many ADs they have, it's been more about trimming the fat, eliminating stores that don't reflect their brand vision, and structuring the market for better dealer success after they brought on too many stores over the last 20-30 years.

As for Patek sport watches, the Nautilus has been tough to find for as long as I remember, though the last couple years have seen it turn into a grail watch. It's been interesting to see the Aquanaut almost reach that same status. Two years ago you could find them in stock at any given AD just waiting for a walk-in sale. Now they're sold before getting tagged.

[theflashunc]

First economic headwinds that hit, you'll see values for watches, art, all other sorts of alternate asset classes start to plummet.

[Thad Pasquale]

it's pretty much the only Rolex I want. Polar dial, fat hands. it's really the orange hand that does it for me. much more visible. especially against the white. but, alas....$7k on the best of days. and they're a dime a dozen at $7700.

Me too, but I need to choose between it, a car, or a...bike?

[NYCfixie]

Me too, but I need to choose between it, a car, or a...bike?

Easy choice (can't believe I am writing this on a custom bike forum)...

Get an inexpensive value oriented bike which will be multi-purpose and negate the need for a car so that you have money for the watch.

[NYCfixie]

First economic headwinds that hit, you'll see values for watches, art, all other sorts of alternate asset classes start to plummet.

Until the bear market turns back into a bull market and they all go up again. Unless you are buying gold bars and storing them in your underground bunker, one can make a great deal of money investing in alternate asset classes such as vintage watches and high end art (assuming you know what you are doing).

Most of the watches we are discussing do not fit into that category. They are high end luxury items that will not lose long term value but may stop selling (new ones and pre-owned) and lose value in the short term (because nobody is buying them) while the financial markets are in decline. As has been proven time and time again, when the US is in a bull market and consumer confidence is high, most Americans go on shopping sprees as if they were drunken sailors on shore leave after several months at sea.

[bbattle]

When the Apple iWatch outsells the entire Swiss watch industry.

(proud Luddite whose cyclocomputer batteries died 4 years ago and owns a NEW flip phone)

I've been going through the whole timepieces thread and loved the watch ownership knowledge curve graph. As a grad student, I wore my plastic Timex and subscribed to the Economist where they had ads of Blancpain watches. Somehow, my sense of style compelled me to at least be a member of the Folio Society, though my income barely kept me clothed in Ultimate frisbee team t-shirts and cut-off jeans shorts (years before "daisy dukes" was a thing). Yes, my sense of style was a bit off-kilter. (still is, according to my wife)

Decades later, I've come to appreciate the finer things in life such as single malt Scotch, beer not prefaced/suffixed with "Lite" in its name, and finely crafted bicycles.

Since I've relied so long on glancing skyward as a means of determining time, I've decided to attack my desire for a new and improved method of timekeeping by purchasing a decidedly low end wristwatch and another of higher quality at the same time. On the one wrist, I can see more precisely how late I am for that meeting and on the other wrist, sufficiently impress those waiting for me to show up not to be angry, but rather, impressed and curious as to just how much I'm getting paid.

So, watch #1

Well, actually two watches. A cream dial Citizen eco drive with brown leather strap and a white dial Citizen eco drive with black leather strap. Plus 4 years insurance the total cost was less than dinner at my favorite restaurant.

watch #2 is still up in the air.

[corko]

Money no object.......

E4BE72C4-CA7C-47B9-B15E-A5CED39A47B6.jpg

[Thad Pasquale]

value oriented bike

That ship has sailed for me...I can't go back now...which is fine. The car is completely frivolous where I am, the watch might actually be more practical. My dad is probably rolling over in his grave.

[dgaddis]

A bit off topic, but I need to get this fixed. It hasn't worked for as long as I've owned it, which is about 26 years now, it won't wind. Well, the crown spins, but it doesn't wind the movement. It was my great grandfather's pocket watch. When I was a little bitty guy I would sit in his lap, put it to my ear, and say 'tock, tock, tock, tock..." as it ticked away. Before he passed away he made sure everyone knew he wanted me to have it. I was 8 when he passed, some of my earliest memories at his and my great grandmother's house.

Anyone know a reputable place I could send it??

[dashDustin]

A bit off topic, but I need to get this fixed. It hasn't worked for as long as I've owned it, which is about 26 years now, it won't wind. Well, the crown spins, but it doesn't wind the movement. It was my great grandfather's pocket watch. When I was a little bitty guy I would sit in his lap, put it to my ear, and say 'tock, tock, tock, tock..." as it ticked away. Before he passed away he made sure everyone knew he wanted me to have it. I was 8 when he passed, some of my earliest memories at his and my great grandmother's house.

Anyone know a reputable place I could send it??

[/img]

i had a similar Elgin. serial number dated it to the early 1900s. great great great grandfather's. i took it to a shop here in Austin and said "i don't care the cost, get it going." after a few months i checked back....no sign of it. what do you do? it's an ongoing deal. technically it's worth maybe $200. sentimental value is priceless.

and, oh yeah...it was given to my g-g-g grandfather by this fellow: Was a Texan the First Man to Fly in an Airplane? | Inside the Gates

[murphy]

Money no object.......

I like it, but given unlimited time and money, I would take anything at all from Philippe Dufour.

[e-RICHIE]

I like it, but given unlimited time and money, I would take anything at all from Philippe Dufour.

The watch he made was already sold.
jk