Timepieces

[rwsaunders]

My wife and I often have conversations about how much net worth would you need to spend $550.00 on a tee shirt and not feel bad. Not bashing those that do and it's a problem I don't expect to have.

Mike

Mike...you should have seen one of my friend's faces when I told him that I spend $50 on a tubular tire that will last me 2,000-2,500 miles.

[Matthew Strongin]

Yummy

It's pretty nuts up close.

[Lionel]

i think he escaped from a russian oligarch's s*x cave. "what time is it?"

Not sure, it's hard to read the time with all the complications on my watch

[NYCfixie]

Tried on more watches....

The jeweler where my wife and I have been customers for over 15 years (NJ and Boston locations) and where I purchased my DateJust and SubDate mentioned they have a few Panerai watches on closeout because they no longer carrying the line. The watches are brand new, the manufacturer warranty is included, and they are 40-50% off depending on model.

I have always liked Panerai but thought they were expensive for what you get. Someone also shared with me offline that Panerai may not be made as well as similarly priced watches. So, if there was Panerai that you always liked, was now 40-50% off, and you know that the secondary market for these watches is in the toilet and may never recover so the best you might ever get back is the discounted price you paid, would you buy it?

1940 Radiomir 619 in Titanium with brown dial - I think the titanium is cool but not crazy about a brown dial:
Radiomir - 45mm

Attachment 111896

1940 Radiomir GMT 657 with black dial - this one might be more my style with a GMT function:
Radiomir GMT - 45mm

Attachment 111897


And compared to my 40mm current model Submariner Date - can't decide if the Panerai wears bigger or about the same.
Attachment 111898

[fmbp]

Tried on more watches....

The jeweler where my wife and I have been customers for over 15 years (NJ and Boston locations) and where I purchased my DateJust and SubDate mentioned they have a few Panerai watches on closeout because they no longer carrying the line. The watches are brand new, the manufacturer warranty is included, and they are 40-50% off depending on model.

I have always liked Panerai but thought they were expensive for what you get. Someone also shared with me offline that Panerai may not be made as well as similarly priced watches. So, if there was Panerai that you always liked, was now 40-50% off, and you know that the secondary market for these watches is in the toilet and may never recover so the best you might ever get back is the discounted price you paid, would you buy it?

1940 Radiomir 619 in Titanium with brown dial - I think the titanium is cool but not crazy about a brown dial:
Radiomir - 45mm

Attachment 111896

1940 Radiomir GMT 657 with black dial - this one might be more my style with a GMT function:
Radiomir GMT - 45mm

Attachment 111897


And compared to my 40mm current model Submariner Date - can't decide if the Panerai wears bigger or about the same.
Attachment 111898

My opinion: I'd say the Panerai wears a little bit bigger - only because of the relative lack of bezel.

[dgaddis]

Tried on more watches....

The jeweler where my wife and I have been customers for over 15 years (NJ and Boston locations) and where I purchased my DateJust and SubDate mentioned they have a few Panerai watches on closeout because they no longer carrying the line. The watches are brand new, the manufacturer warranty is included, and they are 40-50% off depending on model.

I have always liked Panerai but thought they were expensive for what you get. Someone also shared with me offline that Panerai may not be made as well as similarly priced watches. So, if there was Panerai that you always liked, was now 40-50% off, and you know that the secondary market for these watches is in the toilet and may never recover so the best you might ever get back is the discounted price you paid, would you buy it?

Don't buy it. And don't fall for the 'it's on sale so I'm saving money' nonsense. You're not saving money, you're spending money, money you wouldn't otherwise have spent. You've got money to spend, so spend it on something you actually want. If you're already thinking about the resale value, you don't really want it.

[Thad Pasquale]

I've got a problem...all within the past year or so...love the ability to quickly change straps on Panerai stuff...

Pam 1.jpg

Pam 2.jpg

Pam 3.jpg

Tudor Bronze.jpg

Omega.jpg

[Thad Pasquale]

619 for me, that's really nice, but only if you like it not because it's on sale. What was that jeweler again? :)

[Blue Jays]

With regard to the potential Panerai purchase if you do it ...my vote is for the simpler Model 619.
My sense is that particular model will look fresher and appropriate for a longer duration of time.

[dashDustin]

at the same mechanic's clinic where i first saw IWC, a kid in my group had a Panerai. while IWC became my grail, Panerai has also been given a soft spot. especially white dial ones. that said, i'm with the other Dustin. if you're already thinking resale, pass.

[vertical_doug]

Tried on more watches....

The jeweler where my wife and I have been customers for over 15 years (NJ and Boston locations) and where I purchased my DateJust and SubDate mentioned they have a few Panerai watches on closeout because they no longer carrying the line. The watches are brand new, the manufacturer warranty is included, and they are 40-50% off depending on model.

I have always liked Panerai but thought they were expensive for what you get. Someone also shared with me offline that Panerai may not be made as well as similarly priced watches. So, if there was Panerai that you always liked, was now 40-50% off, and you know that the secondary market for these watches is in the toilet and may never recover so the best you might ever get back is the discounted price you paid, would you buy it?

1940 Radiomir 619 in Titanium with brown dial - I think the titanium is cool but not crazy about a brown dial:
Radiomir - 45mm

Attachment 111896

1940 Radiomir GMT 657 with black dial - this one might be more my style with a GMT function:
Radiomir GMT - 45mm

Attachment 111897


And compared to my 40mm current model Submariner Date - can't decide if the Panerai wears bigger or about the same.
Attachment 111898

Even if you buy at 50% discount, you are not going to sell it flat as used. I'd say at best you lose another 20% if not more. I think watches trade around 1/3 for face. Don't try to convince yourself you are getting a deal. You are not.

[NYCfixie]

Even if you buy at 50% discount, you are not going to sell it flat as used. I'd say at best you lose another 20% if not more. I think watches trade around 1/3 for face. Don't try to convince yourself you are getting a deal. You are not.

Not all watches lose value (i.e. Rolex, Patek) but most do and especially if the brand is in decline (i.e. Panerai, Breitling) even if the quality has not changed.

[dashDustin]

most do and especially if the brand is in decline (i.e. Panerai, Breitling) even if the quality has not changed.

it's really surprising how little SuperOceans get these days compared to Planet Oceans. Same goes for Navitimers, which are fairly iconic, in my head.

i'm ready for Rolex 216570 value to plummet. not holding my breath.

[choke]

If you really want a Panerai that's a great deal. But I'm with the others, don't buy it because it's a deal and don't worry about the resale.

As for Panerai quality, I can't speak for the current stuff but I used to own one and it was well made IMO. I'm also not sure that I'd agree that Panerai is "in decline", they seem to hold their value better than most brands.

[NYCfixie]

it's really surprising how little SuperOceans get these days compared to Planet Oceans. Same goes for Navitimers, which are fairly iconic, in my head.

i'm ready for Rolex 216570 value to plummet. not holding my breath.

I doubt you will ever see a Rolex steel sports watch decline in value unless the current "supply drought" ends. Even then, many of the steel sports models (Daytona, Submariner, GMT) seem to keep value no matter what else is going on in the market.

I purchased a new 40mm Explorer II 16570 Polar Dial in May 1994. I wore it every day and beat the heck out of it early in my career (in network closets, server rooms, ceilings, etc). The last service I completed was in early 2017 at Rolex NYC and they made it look brand new. I was not wearing it much since I purchased a Submariner Date in 2018 so when I received a few exceptional offers recently for it, I sold it. I had it for 25 years but was offered more today than I paid in 1994 - inflation adjusted dollars - so the cost of ownership was 2 services; not bad IMHO.

I share this because the Explorer II 16570 was considered for a very long time the "entry level Rolex sports watch" or "the poor man's Rolex sports watch". And the Polar dial made it even more of an outcast. I originally purchased it specifically because it was not a Submariner which everyone seemed to have, it did not look like a Rolex, I really liked the fixed bezel and GMT function, and I liked the white dial more than the black one. So, for about 23ish years this watch was not really worth much on the secondary market or even as a trade-in on something new.

During the past 2 years it appears the "Rolex drought" has become worse but authorized dealers and industry insiders I have spoken with all same about the same thing: Rolex is not producing fewer watches or even controlling the market but social media has brought new life and purchasers into the luxury watch market so you have more people wanting the same amount of watches that have always been available. Most people do not even know that Rolex makes about 1 million watches per year so how could we even have a drought?

This also means that the secondary pre-owned market prices keep increasing as people who cannot get on waiting lists (i.e. first time owners) to get a new watch from an authorized dealer want to get something. Why is this important? Because brands like Panerai that were super hot just a few years ago have fallen out of favor so the secondary market for this brand has all but fallen apart. The watches are the same and the brand has not changed but people's likes and desires did change. The same could be applied to Omega, why is one of the watches you mentioned holding more value than the other? Who the heck ever thought the Patek Nautilus would ever be trading at these crazy over inflated prices? Did you even know that Patek made a steel sports watch and did anyone other than truly enthusiastic collectors ever want one before social media existed?

As to the 42mm Explorer II 216570, Rolex enthusiasts shunned the larger 42mm case and the "fat hands" of the updated model as soon as it was announced several years ago yet the watch is as unavailable as other Rolex steel sports watches which means someone is buying all of them. Technically it is a much better watch than the older 16570 so why wouldn't people want it if it has the same Explorer II design DNA? At $8100 retail it is in between the Submariner $7500 and the Submariner Date at $8550. At $8100 with date and GMT functions it is IMHO still one of the best value watches in the entire Rolex lineup. Will it hold value in the future? As far as I can tell and have been told by industry experts, any Rolex steel sports watch will hold its value but some more than others. In my case, it took 23 years to get back my original outlay on the 16570 but it is hot right now because it is still at the entry level price point for many in the pre-owned market and you can actually get one. Will it be the same for the 216570? Probably yes, but who knows how long it will take. Also consider that the 16570 model was one of the longest running watch productions for Rolex 1998-2011 without changes so there are many to be had and pre-owned prices are still going up.

As to my current 2018 Submariner Date ceramic bezel "maxi case", it too was panned by Rolex enthusiasts when it was announced yet you cannot get one today. I could sell it today and get more than I paid just 1 year ago. How does that even make sense? I was able to get one because I had an almost 15 year relationship with an authorized dealer so I only waited a few weeks whereas others may wait years and/or never get one. The one thing I have learned recently is that Rolex "wait lists" are only for "good customers" who have a "purchase history" with an authorized dealer. John Q. off the street without an AD relationship is not getting an in-demand watch as most ADs do not even keep them in the display case anymore (unless they pay a very large premium on the secondary market for a "new-used" not from an AD example).

So, if you want that 216570 Explorer II 42mm and can find one at what you consider a reasonable price (to you) on the pre-owned market, get it because it will probably keep most of its value. And I vote for the Polar dial as it is still the only Rolex sports watch to come with a white dial (save a very limited and outrageously priced Pan-Am GMT from many years ago).

Good luck on the hunt!

Rolex Explorer II 42mm 216570

[NYCfixie]

...I'm also not sure that I'd agree that Panerai is "in decline", they seem to hold their value better than most brands.

Check any of the major pre-owned online sellers and you will see most Panerai watches (save truly vintage exceptional pieces) are "on-sale" and ask about trade-in or direct sale prices and you will see how little you get. Those Panerai pieces shown above, are remaining new stock from my authorized dealer who decided to drop the line because they were not selling. In the last few weeks those specific pieces have dropped from 30% off, to 40% off, and now at 50% off they just can't get rid of them. This is what gave me pause about buying one even though I like the GMT.

And what brands are your reference points? What many of us think as quality brands and models may no longer be "in vogue" anymore and as such are "in decline".

[NYCfixie]

...the 16570 model was one of the longest running watch productions for Rolex 1998-2011 without changes so there are many to be had and pre-owned prices are still going up...

Made a mistake. It is 1988 (not 1998) - 2011. So the longest produced model watch by Rolex without any significant changes (except 3185 to 3186 movement at some point and and hollow link bracelet to solid link bracelet at another point which most consumers would not even notice) and the pre-owned price is still rising.

Lats piece of advice, hold onto your watch funds until the next major financial market crash because watch sales fall off although at that point most people who may have the funds do not buy watches. So, if you can be the person that bucks trends, you might get a good deal at that point in time.

[corko]

Omega Globemaster......top of my next watch list.......

[bbattle]

I came across this Holton Professional by Elliot Brown.

Holton Professional reference 11-1-N2 - Holton

It's not yet available so has anyone heard of the brand?

[funcrusher]

basing a watch purchase on whether it will hold value in the future is pretty silly. no way how to handicap how the market will view a watch in the future. no different than cars (e.g., i shoulda kept my 997.2 manual turbo). also basing "value" on what you get for trade-in is silly, too. you lose the wholesale/retail spread as soon as you pay for it. could you sell a steel skydweller with the blue face for what you paid for it? sure, because they are in limited such limited supply...

there are 2 ways you can make money selling watches: high volume or high margins. patek and rolex decided to clean up distribution and limit supply. that doesn't mean they're sought after more. they are harder to buy cuz they're producing fewer units and preserving margin. there was a time when you could walk into any ad and get 20-30% off a sub or nautilus without even asking. to say panerai and breitling are in decline isn't really a fair characterization...they could easily follow suit, but they're taking a different path to profitability.

buy a watch cuz you like the design ethos and wear it. i justify it by telling my wife that i will pass them on to our sons (the patek marketing works!)