Virus thread, the political one.

[j44ke]

More Beer Hall Putsch. But the violence will be tragic all the same. The stuff in Michigan in particular I'd consider paramilitary terrorism and we'd be horrified by if this were happening in any other country that purports to be a democracy. Yet here we are.

What other group of Americans could get away with that? Amazing restraint from the security for the Michigan legislature. Sounds like from the Governor that the Sergeant at Arms should get a medal. It could have been horrific.

[rydesteel]

^^^
Some of us are old enough to have been around when this happened. I was in college at the time and attended a student protest that night.

Mike

I was 10 and remember my Mother crying quietly by the Radio. My Father ran a small Construction company and some of the boys who worked for him had to leave because they were helping the Country fight Communism. My Good Friend and Tai Chi Instructor was a member of Students for a Democratic Society and recruited by the Weathermen who he turned down because his path was a path of Peace not Violence, my Father in Law was a Navy Seal and served 2 Tours, and many other people whose lives have touched mine, it did so much to shape my Political and Social views. Lest we forget those who came before, it's happening again in many way's.

[davids]

My father came home and took the whole family back to the university where he worked. We got in a long line of people that snaked around the campus and walked slowly with them. It was dark. There was some singing but it was actually pretty quiet. Two things happened that I didn’t understand until later. Students kept coming up to my father and saying they were glad he was there. Then someone came up and took my father’s photo, and some students went for the camera, but my father said “No don’t give them any excuses.” Later I understood that as a young professor without tenure, he could have been fired. And everyone, including my father, thought the photographer was FBI. I was 5 years old and I still remember those moments very clearly.

At Kent State?

I went to summer camp with siblings of one of the victims a few years later. It was many more years until I understood what happened there. Just a lawn at a small state school...

[j44ke]

At Kent State?

I went to summer camp with siblings of one of the victims a few years later. It was many more years until I understood what happened there. Just a lawn at a small state school...

Norfolk VA. Navy town then. Weird place to grow up.

[htwoopup]

Being one of the old guys here, I will say that I remember it well as I was about to leave for college in the fall. One thing that has always bothered me is that while Kent State was about the war, there was another ugly killing of two students Phillip Gibbs and James Green (and injuring a dozen others) at Jackson State on May 15 of that year which was about racism and is always overshadowed by the Four Dead in Ohio. I hope we always remember both incidents and am saddened that today the same issues and divisions still permeate our society.

[BBB]

What other group of Americans could get away with that? Amazing restraint from the security for the Michigan legislature. Sounds like from the Governor that the Sergeant at Arms should get a medal. It could have been horrific.

It is really concerning. If you want to protest about social isolation that is one thing (although the evidence should be showing by now that it is key in controlling the spread of COVID-19), but why do you need to turn up with assault rifles? Assault rifles are designed for one thing and one thing only. Even worse when they tried to get into a building. It was a massive show of restraint for security or the Police to have not responded to what is obvious provocation as it would have resulted in blood shed.

Very sad in an election year in response to a pandemic which has killed lots of people and caused a whole raft of economic damage for a group of a people, who are clearly being used for a specific purpose, to push the boundaries in such a way. Once the shooting starts it is very hard to stop.

[Mark Kelly]

I fid it astonishing that a group of white men turn up to a government building with assault rifles and nothing much happens. Can you imagine the response if any other group did the same?

[gregl]

I fid it astonishing that a group of white men turn up to a government building with assault rifles and nothing much happens. Can you imagine the response if any other group did the same?

That group of white men are nothing more than domestic terrorists. If the law allows, they should be charged as such. But of course nearly every politician in the country is so afraid of the NRA that nothing will come of this.

Greg

[Colinmclelland]

Very sad in an election year in response to a pandemic which has killed lots of people and caused a whole raft of economic damage for a group of a people, who are clearly being used for a specific purpose, to push the boundaries in such a way. Once the shooting starts it is very hard to stop.

Leaving aside the bizarre white male with a gun thing (which I can only do because it's America!) I heard someone say something yesterday that brings the whole protest thing really unstuck for me.

Businesses are hurting because the government has shut them down. The counter argument is that even if the government told them all there was nothing to see here and the population could all go about their merry way there would still be enough of the population with the response "WTF? Umm..no. My Family won't be doing that" that businesses would still be fubar, only now there would be no government support because "hey, we've told them all to re-open"...

Apart from that, if people want to accelerate the evolutionary process for themselves I'm generally OK with it.

[BBB]

An outbreak of domestic terrorism with Trump in charge would be another disaster. The division it would create would be used as a weapon to try and help a shallow, vain and egotistical man get re-elected. The dead would just be statistics on the way to four more years (if he gets his way).

As a counter-point, there are clearly some divisions between states and the federal government in Australia, but the politics has been well and truly toned down, and more importantly, we are literally light years away from shooting each other over being in lockdown. Yes it is causing economic problems but it is better than thousands dying and our health system being pushed to the point of collapse. All in all, we are doing okay in Australia.

[theflashunc]

I fid it astonishing that a group of white men turn up to a government building with assault rifles and nothing much happens. Can you imagine the response if any other group did the same?

The Black Panthers did. Reagan saw fit to change California's gun laws rather quickly.

[GrantM]

Businesses are hurting because the government has shut them down. The counter argument is that even if the government told them all there was nothing to see here and the population could all go about their merry way there would still be enough of the population with the response "WTF? Umm..no. My Family won't be doing that" that businesses would still be fubar, only now there would be no government support

Bill Gates was making this point during the first days of the shut down. It's part of the model. When someone makes the argument that the "cure" is worse
than the disease, they're committing the logic error by comparing the "normal" pre-virus situation to the current one. There is no option to go back to normal
during a pandemic. The fact people can't seem to process this i guess is explained by the fact there are a lot of stupid people in this world.
Those folks don't seem to understand how public policy making is extremely hard choices, sometimes between bad or worse.
Magical thinking and miracles are not one of the choices.

-g

[vertical_doug]

If you want some historic context about the protests to 're-open' America and extremism, the Federal Reserve New York just posted a report on 1918 Spanish Flu and the rise of extremism post pandemic in Germany from 1918-1933. It is ironic that this economic research being published coincides with the rise in our protests.

Here is the link:
https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibr...orts/sr921.pdf

Abstract:

We merge several historical data sets from Germany to show that influenza mortality in 1918-1920 is correlated with societal changes, as measured by municipal spending and city-level extremist voting, in the subsequent decade. First, influenza deaths are associated with lower per capita spending, especially on services consumed by the young. Second, influenza deaths are correlated with the share of votes received by extremist parties in 1932 and 1933. Our election results are robust to controlling for city spending, demographics, war-related population changes, city-level wages, and regional unemployment, and to instrumenting influenza mortality. We conjecture that our findings may be the consequence of long-term societal changes brought about by a pandemic.

Queue Carl Orff and Carmina Burana

[ides1056]

The Black Panthers did. Reagan saw fit to change California's gun laws rather quickly.

As a kid I used to go skeet shooting at Wolfback Ridge in what is now the Golden Gate Recreation Area, just across the Golden Gate Bridge from SF. I am guessing this was around 1965. I have never forgotten the sound of automatic rifle fire that I first encountered there: Panthers having target practice. I don't recall being surprised or scared.

[rydesteel]

There's more to the protests than meets the eye. The man and men behind the curtain.
Robert Mercer, Man Behind Cambridge Analytica, Is Funding Anti-Shutdown Protests

[gregl]

There's more to the protests than meets the eye. The man and men behind the curtain.
Robert Mercer, Man Behind Cambridge Analytica, Is Funding Anti-Shutdown Protests

"There's a war out there, old friend. A world war. And it's not about who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information. What we see and hear, how we work, what we think... it's all about the information!" Quoted from the movie "Sneakers", 1992. The manipulation of the Republican base continues, without their knowledge.

Greg

[j44ke]

Talk about a shadow government eh?

The Democrats' motto for 2020 should be "I am rubber, you are glue."

Every strange accusation Trump makes against the Democrats (or whoever is his boogey man of the moment) always ends up being what he and his scout masters are up to.

Not saying the Democrats are angels. But these reflexively looping accusations are uncanny. And weird. Really weird.

[mzilliox]

Leaving aside the bizarre white male with a gun thing (which I can only do because it's America!) I heard someone say something yesterday that brings the whole protest thing really unstuck for me.

Businesses are hurting because the government has shut them down. The counter argument is that even if the government told them all there was nothing to see here and the population could all go about their merry way there would still be enough of the population with the response "WTF? Umm..no. My Family won't be doing that" that businesses would still be fubar, only now there would be no government support because "hey, we've told them all to re-open"...

Apart from that, if people want to accelerate the evolutionary process for themselves I'm generally OK with it.

i keep telling people exactly this! there is a lady here in salem oregon who will disobey the ordinances and open her salon. she has been encouraged by one of our state reps, because he hates our governor. hes calling her a freedom fighter, patriot, real american. Im like dude, perhaps if your intention is to help your constituent, point her in the direction of service available, dont encourage her to get herself arrested... at which point there is no help for her and her salon will surely be lost... of course we all know he has no intention of helping this woman, just using her to win votes from a certain demographic who hates the democrat governor. and when you call them on it, they hide like cowards behind false notions of freedom and rights.

here is an article that helps me:
I Think You May Be Wasting Freedom

[mzilliox]

Bill Gates was making this point during the first days of the shut down. It's part of the model. When someone makes the argument that the "cure" is worse
than the disease, they're committing the logic error by comparing the "normal" pre-virus situation to the current one. There is no option to go back to normal
during a pandemic. The fact people can't seem to process this i guess is explained by the fact there are a lot of stupid people in this world.
Those folks don't seem to understand how public policy making is extremely hard choices, sometimes between bad or worse.
Magical thinking and miracles are not one of the choices.

-g

well said, as usual. im finding my sanity again in this thread after fighting with our state rep yesterday. thank you all for your opinions and sharing. i am shocked by selfishness being masked as freedom. and im tired of folks who dont know the difference between free will and freedom.

[rwsaunders]

This newspaper came a few days after I mailed in my primary election ballot...hmmm. I will add that it really did a nice job in my charcoal chimney, in terms of starting the grille the other night.