--be cognizant of your surroundings-----

[snotrockets]

Without delving into the merits of the current tax system, I would just point out income tax rates are not the right way to frame the issue because the ultra wealthy will structure their income so as not to pay or minimise income taxes.

And criminals are breaking the laws, so let's get rid of laws as well.

Laws are first and foremost deceleration of norms. Right now, the norm in the US is to hate the poor.

[Corso]

For the record, I never stated (or recall anyone here saying) the wealthy should get tax breaks because of charitable giving. All I said was that if the top tier gets hit hard(er) via taxes, other areas of their wealth spend go away. Charitable donations may be the front line to suffer.

When they budget their spend for the year (or their lawyers and accountants)- most likely a set figure. Adjust a number someplace, and money moves from another target to counter the adjustment.

For EXAMPLE (not starting an Amazon sub-thread, just something familiar to the masses) Bezos may increase salaries in (example only) Massachusetts, but layoffs in (example only) Texas may be the result. Or more employees are kept at sub 40 hours per week, in order for Amazon not to consider them full time-meaning health benefits are not provided in order to move that savings to open more distribution centers.

The top brackets already pay the majority of taxes here. Lets not lose sight of that.

And the blanket statements of "well, they can afford it" may make sense to us, but doesn't always ring true in their minds.

Top 2% of Americans Will Pay 87% of Income Tax - WSJ

[sine]

edit

Yes, but most on that list will say tax rate makes no difference for them. In fact, many say (Buffet, Gates, Soros) rates should be higher.

I wonder if they voluntarily pay additional monies with what they owe to the US Treasury each year.

[Christian Fox]

edit



I wonder if they voluntarily pay additional monies with what they owe to the US Treasury each year.

Of course not. What they do is voluntarily hire an army of tax attorneys making sure they pay as little as possible. I don't blame them for that, but it cracks me up when people who have dedicated their lives to becoming enormously wealthy (Buffet and Soros in particular) start crowing about for higher taxes once they've already accumulated their great fortunes. I doubt they were calling for higher taxes during their accumulation phase.

[snotrockets]

Of course not. What they do is voluntarily hire an army of tax attorneys making sure they pay as little as possible. I don't blame them for that, but it cracks me up when people who have dedicated their lives to becoming enormously wealthy (Buffet and Soros in particular) start crowing about for higher taxes once they've already accumulated their great fortunes. I doubt they were calling for higher taxes during their accumulation phase.

If those taxes are progressive, does it matter much? Could mark it to becoming older and wiser.

Regressive taxes are the ones you want delayed to when you have wealth.

[snotrockets]

For the record, I never stated (or recall anyone here saying) the wealthy should get tax breaks because of charitable giving. All I said was that if the top tier gets hit hard(er) via taxes, other areas of their wealth spend go away. Charitable donations may be the front line to suffer.

But if the public coffers would be full, we wouldn't need those handouts. And we'd get to democratically allocate those funds. How is that a bad thing?

The top brackets already pay the majority of taxes here. Lets not lose sight of that.

A $100 tax on a $1000 paycheck is much more, to the taxed, than a $1,000,000 tax on a $10,000,000 of earnings.

[davids]

According to Rush: 'Anti-semitism stems from the left. It's the democrats. Hitler was a leftie you know.

Surprising how many people actually believe this. Completely inaccurate. There are libraries full of documents actually generated by the NAZIs proving this.

And of course many of the same who believe this palather also are surprised to learn Republican opposition forced FDR to keep the US on the sidelines until the Japanese foolishly bombed Pearl Harbor - much to the Nazis chagrin.

Not completely inaccurate! There are antisemitic lefties. And when those of us who are (at least mostly) on the left deny that, we're playing into the narrative of the racist right. ...Or their apologists who then say things like, "this was an attack on 'religiosity'." Fuck off, Kellyanne. This was an attack on Jews.

To be completely clear: The terrorist who murdered 11 Jews on Saturday was a racist, an antisemite and an extreme rightist.

[Doug Fattic]

One of the reasons I support the idea of a progressively increasing tax rate on people that make a substantial amount of money is because that revenue is needed for public services to help the people they screw over to get rich. I think it is a fantasy that those that got rich did so because they are just smarter and worked harder. Often they made a lot of money because they took advantage of those that worked for them. There can be exceptions of course. Because the ratio of what they keep for themselves compared to what they could do for their workers is not balanced, their employees need government support in social services paid for by taxes. This is why I oppose reducing taxes - it mostly helps people that don’t need the help. It leads to tighter budgets meaning people like teachers whose salaries are dependent on taxes instead of a totally free market system make a lot less than they should.

Sometimes I wonder if the US is smart enough to be a democracy. It is a mystery to me why poor people vote against their own interests and an even greater mystery why Christians support Trump. Well I know why but it makes no sense. I go to church faithfully ever week. I see our president as completely amoral that breaks all Biblical ideals to achieve his own goals. The most important thing to him is to win and however he does it is fair as long as he gets what he wants. He provides no examples of leadership I would want anyone to follow.

[davids]

And no one's mentioned the regressive Capital Gains Tax! Or Capital Loss Carryover!

[bcm119]

Technology has made it easier for many industries to extract wealth from the many and funnel it to the few. Amazon is the best example now, but a decade ago it was big box stores. In both cases, jobs across a range of skill levels have been replaced with jobs requiring less skill on average.

Attitudes of corporations have shifted as well: gone are the days of Henry Ford and his ideal of paying his factory workers enough to afford the product they were making. Now, workers are seen as expenses rather than assets.

For those reasons, the tax code has to become more progressive to account for the increasing income inequality. If it doesn’t, I would worry that the middle class spending power will eventually fall below the level required to keep the economy afloat. We don’t need socialism to fix this, we just need tweaks to the tax code, closing of loop holes, and tightened regulations on worker exploitation.

[lumpy]

Technology has made it easier for many industries to extract wealth from the many and funnel it to the few. Amazon is the best example now, but a decade ago it was big box stores. In both cases, jobs across a range of skill levels have been replaced with jobs requiring less skill on average.

Attitudes of corporations have shifted as well: gone are the days of Henry Ford and his ideal of paying his factory workers enough to afford the product they were making. Now, workers are seen as expenses rather than assets.

For those reasons, the tax code has to become more progressive to account for the increasing income inequality. If it doesn’t, I would worry that the middle class spending power will eventually fall below the level required to keep the economy afloat. We don’t need socialism to fix this, we just need tweaks to the tax code, closing of loop holes, and tightened regulations on worker exploitation.

Along those lines, earlier in the industrial revolution, you needed lots of labor to run your machines, and if you wanted more production, you had to pay more wages to that labor, and those wages necessarily got diffused through the whole economy. Now, as there is more and more automation, if you want more production, you have to invest more capital, and the return on that investment stays up at the top - and in the case of capital gains, in is taxed less than labor would be too.

[jclay]

One of the reasons I support the idea of a progressively increasing tax rate on people that make a substantial amount of money is because that revenue is needed for public services to help the people they screw over to get rich. I think it is a fantasy that those that got rich did so because they are just smarter and worked harder. Often they made a lot of money because they took advantage of those that worked for them. There can be exceptions of course. Because the ratio of what they keep for themselves compared to what they could do for their workers is not balanced, their employees need government support in social services paid for by taxes. This is why I oppose reducing taxes - it mostly helps people that don’t need the help. It leads to tighter budgets meaning people like teachers whose salaries are dependent on taxes instead of a totally free market system make a lot less than they should.

Sometimes I wonder if the US is smart enough to be a democracy. It is a mystery to me why poor people vote against their own interests and an even greater mystery why Christians support Trump. Well I know why but it makes no sense. I go to church faithfully ever week. I see our president as completely amoral that breaks all Biblical ideals to achieve his own goals. The most important thing to him is to win and however he does it is fair as long as he gets what he wants. He provides no examples of leadership I would want anyone to follow.

Doug: You and I have seen a lot of framebuilding issues somewhat differently over the years. On this non-framebuilding issue, and wrt what you wrote above I feel like we share the same DNA; on this issue you and I are blood brothers. You boiled it down perfectly and hit the nail squarely on the head. Well done.

Donald Trump is a cancer with no redeeming qualities and he's metastasised into far too many of our population.

[dgaddis]

Doug - I'm right there with you on Christians and Trump. I'm a Christian, and Trump doesn't represent any part of my faith at all.

This is a great ad I've been seeing on Hulu.

[Saab2000]

Donald Trump is a cancer with no redeeming qualities and he's metastasised into far too many of our population.

I agree that he's a cancer but I think he's a symptom of a bigger issue of ignorance, weak education, misinformation, etc. He's the result of a larger issue I feel, but not the cause. But his supporters now have a guiding light, which is unfortunate because he's a bully who constantly tells lies.

I am loathe to use language like I do here because it smacks of elitism and some kind of enlightenment that only a few people possess. But when I do have some conversations with coworkers I am dismayed at the falsehoods they actually believe, making me wonder where they get their information.

An example is how some will occasionally reference Europe and the horrors of crime and lawlessness that exist since the Syrian refugees overran their borders and are now ruling major European cities with Sharia law and raping women left and right. WTF? I actually let one guy talk to me for about an hour about this kind of thing then asked him if he had ever been to Europe. Well, no...... I told him I lived there for the better part of fifteen years, have family and friends there and still visit often and that none of what he describes is even remotely accurate. He had no retort and felt pretty sheepish. First hand knowledge is always better than rumor and innuendo and misleading YouTube videos and FB memes.

As I've mentioned before, we need to temper our positions until we have facts to back them up and too much of our "News" sources aren't fact-based anymore. They're opinion disguised as news and this is a very, very dangerous trend, coupled with generally weak education (weakened by the GOP every time there's a budget crisis - public education is the first thing to get cut in state budgets and is constantly under attack by the Republicans) in the US. Think critically, be skeptical of what we're told as 'fact' and do some first-hand fact finding.

[Matthew J]

Not completely inaccurate! There are antisemitic lefties. And when those of us who are (at least mostly) on the left deny that, we're playing into the narrative of the racist right. ...Or their apologists who then say things like, "this was an attack on 'religiosity'." Fuck off, Kellyanne. This was an attack on Jews.

To be completely clear: The terrorist who murdered 11 Jews on Saturday was a racist, an antisemite and an extreme rightist.

My apologies if my post was not clear.

My only point is that undere no definition was Hitler a leftist. He was a fascist. There is no cognizable definition of fascism that makes it leftist.

Of course there is Anti-Semitism on the left as well as the right. Anti-Semistism - and all racism - is wrong whichever political spectrum it springs from.

[jclay]

I agree that he's a cancer but I think he's a symptom of a bigger issue of ignorance, weak education, misinformation, etc. He's the result of a larger issue I feel, but not the cause. But his supporters now have a guiding light, which is unfortunate because he's a bully who constantly tells lies.

I completely agree.

[Corso]

I agree that he's a cancer but I think he's a symptom of a bigger issue of ignorance, weak education, misinformation, etc. He's the result of a larger issue I feel, but not the cause. But his supporters now have a guiding light, which is unfortunate because he's a bully who constantly tells lies.

I am loathe to use language like I do here because it smacks of elitism and some kind of enlightenment that only a few people possess. But when I do have some conversations with coworkers I am dismayed at the falsehoods they actually believe, making me wonder where they get their information.

62,984,828 ignorant, weakly educated voters. At least you didn't label all as "basket of deplorables". Please say SOME of his supporters have a guiding light. I won't deny some of his base exactly what you've described. But certainly not all.

This cuts both ways: I live in Massachusetts, and over many, many years have asked co-workers and friends on why they keep voting Democrat, and many can't even come up with a reason at all for any particular candidate, other than "my unions tells us, that's what my parents have done, JFK was a democrat, I'm not rich enough to be a republican", etc etc."

Honestly, everyone has to relax and stop "we are better than them" monologue. I sincerely hope we ALL sides have better candidates to choose from next time around. I'd love to see a stronger 3rd or even a 4th party (with a real shot of winning) in this country.

[Saab2000]

62,984,828 ignorant, weakly educated voters. At least you didn't label all as "basket of deplorables". Please say SOME of his supporters have a guiding light. I won't deny some of his base exactly what you've described. But certainly not all.

This cuts both ways: I live in Massachusetts, and over many, many years have asked co-workers and friends on why they keep voting Democrat, and many can't even come up with a reason at all for any particular candidate, other than "my unions tells us, that's what my parents have done, JFK was a democrat, I'm not rich enough to be a republican", etc etc."

Honestly, everyone has to relax and stop "we are better than them" monologue. I sincerely hope we ALL sides have better candidates to choose from next time around. I'd love to see a stronger 3rd or even a 4th party (with a real shot of winning) in this country.

I agree. Country always needs to be ahead of party. And no, I think most of my fellow citizens aren’t deplorable.

[rwsaunders]

The NY Times published this article about the rise of white nationalism and the struggle that law enforcement has in dealing with the issue. This excerpt (below) from the article sadly is proving to be so true.

U.S. Law Enforcement Failed to See the Threat of White Nationalism. Now They Don’t Know How to Stop It. - The New York Times

When we first spoke this August, Levin noted the continued ascendance of the far right, even after many of its members went underground after Charlottesville. “The rocket ship is still twirling,” he said. Levin predicted that the next big wave of activity wouldn’t be around mega-rallies but around what he calls “aggressive maneuvers” by loners or small cells. A series of violent outbursts in a single week in October made his prediction seem prescient.

[vertical_doug]

The NY Times published this article about the rise of white nationalism and the struggle that law enforcement has in dealing with the issue. This excerpt (below) from the article sadly is proving to be so true.

U.S. Law Enforcement Failed to See the Threat of White Nationalism. Now They Don’t Know How to Stop It. - The New York Times

When we first spoke this August, Levin noted the continued ascendance of the far right, even after many of its members went underground after Charlottesville. “The rocket ship is still twirling,” he said. Levin predicted that the next big wave of activity wouldn’t be around mega-rallies but around what he calls “aggressive maneuvers” by loners or small cells. A series of violent outbursts in a single week in October made his prediction seem prescient.

I've said it before, 'the global right is very coordinated. I think Tommy Robinson of the EDL will visit the US on a speaking tour as soon as his legal case in the UK is finished. He is one of those expounding Sharia Law has taken over the UK. (as per Saabs post) He is popular with the BreitBart crowd and expect Trump to tweet about him.'