Virus thread, the political one.

[fastupslowdown]

Seems a very core responsibility , of government, is ensuring the health and general welfare of the population. Everyone want to re-open. People need money, states need money. Trump campaigned on the economy. Reopening without a plan just means we go through this again. Nobody should want that. The governors do want to handle re-opening. They are fine with handling testing and mitigation and directing the hospitals but some functions are outside the control and purview of states and that's supply chains and maintaining stockpiles. Makes no sense for every city and state to duplicate a stockpile when in most cases not every part of the country would be impacted. Federal government has powers to alleviate supply chains states lack. Since this is the politics thread I'll call it like I see it, its a hard problem and Trump doesn't want to own it so he spends days arguing about it wasting energy and then agrees to help with swabs and utilize the DPA anway. -Mike G

[ides1056]

I don't see this administration as neutered in any way. They are going full-tilt toward whatever end they have in mind. This is f*ck you government, qed.

That they don't care one bit is plain as day. Lie to your face not care one bit. Spew a blizzard of BS at everything and call it good.

A big, fat middle finger at everything.

Proud of this attitude.

Winning.

[j44ke]

I guess this is the answer to "what have we got to lose".

[theflashunc]

I guess this is the answer to "what have we got to lose".

What a shocking and completely unexpected development.

[Lionel]

I guess this is the answer to "what have we got to lose".

This is ridiculous. The protocol to use Hydroxycloroquine is to do it early before you need to go to the hospital. Once you need to be hospitalized it is way too late and has no value. It was very clear since the beginning of the treatment in Marseille.

[guido]

Inside the conservative networks backing anti-quarantine protests | Washington Post

"The ads on Facebook sounded populist and passionate: “The people are rising up against these insane shutdowns,” they said. “We’re fighting back to demand that our elected officials reopen America.”

But the posts, funded by an initiative called “Convention of States,” were not the product of a grass-roots uprising alone. Instead, they represented one salvo in a wide-ranging and well-financed conservative campaign to undermine restrictions that medical experts say are necessary to contain the coronavirus — but that protesters call overkill and whose economic fallout could damage President Trump’s political prospects.

A network of right-leaning individuals and groups, aided by nimble online outfits, has helped incubate the fervor erupting in state capitals across the country. The activism is often organic and the frustration deeply felt, but it is also being amplified, and in some cases coordinated, by longtime conservative activists, whose robust operations were initially set up with help from Republican megadonors.

The Convention of States project launched in 2015 with a high-dollar donation from the family foundation of Robert Mercer, a billionaire hedge fund manager and Republican patron. It boasts past support from two members of the Trump administration — Ken Cuccinelli, acting director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, and Ben Carson, secretary of housing and urban development.

It also trumpets a prior endorsement from Ron DeSantis, the Republican governor of Florida and a close Trump ally who is pursuing an aggressive plan to reopen his state’s economy. Cuccinelli, Carson and DeSantis did not respond to requests for comment.

The initiative, aimed at curtailing federal power, is now leveraging its sweeping national network and digital arsenal to help stitch together scattered demonstrations across the country, making opposition to stay-at-home orders appear more widespread than is suggested by polling."

[fastupslowdown]

NIH now recommends against taking hydroxychloroquine for treating coronavirus -Mike G

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

[ides1056]

From George Chidi, posted to fbook and worth a read and think:

"You really want to know what I think about rescinding shelter in place in the way this order is structured?

It's about making sure people can't file unemployment. It isn't about saving lives, certainly. It's not about the peak of the curve. I think lots of people are going to ignore the governor and stay home regardless. This isn't a decision being driven by epidemiology. It's the rawest and most lethal of political decisions, and it will kill people.

Kemp is looking forward to the fiscal discussion in 2021 and 2022, when all of this really starts to hit. He got elected by out-yahooing the field. His base has been trained to view government spending as a crime, and he knows that he becomes politically vulnerable to an attack if he raises taxes. He is not capable of delivering a nuanced message around necessity, because his base doesn't know how to hear it.

The state is staring at one million unemployment applications. It probably cannot pay those over six months. The unemployment fund has a reserve of about $2.6 billion. Last week it paid out about $42 million -- which is about three times as much as it usually does. That figure will double in two weeks, give or take. Maybe more.

At that rate, the fund is empty in about 28 weeks. Probably less. Even if things improve later, that fund will run dry in a year, because unemployment isn't going to return to 5 percent for a long time.

Georgians did the Kansas thing a couple of years ago and instituted a hard constitutional limit on income taxes of 6 percent. It cannot go higher without amending the state constitution. What that means is that there's no easy mechanism for the state to accommodate an extraordinary expense, like this, without somehow telling Republican reactionaries that they must raise taxes.

Those reactionaries are the ones who will be protesting in front of the state house Friday, when this order goes into effect.

If there's no state order calling for businesses to be closed, the people who are unemployed can no longer claim that their unemployment is involuntary, even if it would be utter idiocy for them to return to work. A hair dresser or a massage therapist cannot maintain social distance. But they can certainly file for relief ... unless the law says they can work.

"Gyms, fitness centers, bowling alleys, body art studios, barbers, cosmetologists, hair designers, nail care artists, estheticians, their respective schools & massage therapists."

Not banks. Not software firms. Not factories. Not schools.

It is no coincidence that the businesses on this list are staffed by relatively poor people. Because that's who he wants off the unemployment rolls. And if they die ... well, they're mostly black people, or Asian, and poor, and an acceptable political loss for a Republican governor.

The purpose of this isn't to open up these businesses. It's to get the workers there off the dole. Work, and die. Or don't work ... but you're on your own. Because we can't raise taxes to cover the time you spent trying to save your life and the lives of the people around you."

[King Of Dirk]

Well whatever never mind

[lumpy]

Well whatever never mind

Perhaps Lionel's comment is evidence that those are not the rules.

[j44ke]

I didn’t understand how Dirk’s comment follows from Lionel’s comment, but now Dirk’s comment is gone.

Honestly we are trying really hard to be fair about this. We’ve asked a number of people to stop with the name calling of political figures. We’ve asked people not so simply shout out accusations and instead support their criticism with news articles or other information from newspapers of record or scientific resources.

Politics is politics though. Everyone has a viewpoint. But we are trying to encourage it to move towards a more reasonable tone and fact based criticism.

One thing I will say, is that I have started being able to hear Trump’s advisors behind the things that Trump says. He has a strong will and a selective attention, so he feels he is saying what he heard from his advisors and perhaps rightly feeling frustrated and indignant when he is criticized for what he views as factual information from reputable sources. And if you read along the news thread of statements he’s made, articles written subsequently over several days start to figure out where the info came from and what information was actually presented to Trump. And sometimes, that info is good. It just never made it through the messenger.

In short, I think he has some good people working for him right now, but the loss in translation that occurs in the process of transmitting their findings to him is significant. Add to that his natural tendency to aggrandize everything and his thirst for dramatic pronouncements, he sets himself up time and again to get dissected by the media because that’s what they are trained to do (and that what they should do) when things come out sideways from people in government.

I just don’t think he is good at this. And if I was an advisor, I would tell him to decenter the daily briefings. Greet everyone and then stand aside. Let a chain of experts present the info. He’s just making it harder for himself to look presidential by trying to be the chief explainer. He’ll look better 100% if he projects confidence in what his people say, and the information reaches the country directly from the source of information.

For instance, on this immigration policy change, I can guess that there is a kernel of solid immunological practice behind it to reduce the influx of additional infections into the country. Just taking the shelter in place scheme and applying it to international scale. But he presented it before it was ready, he may have been sold on the idea by an advisor using the “protecting jobs” argument, and he is frustrated that what he calls his complete shut-down of travel from China in February has been shown to be anything but. So it becomes a complete stop on immigration in a tweet, and then there is a flurry of activity and news articles as everyone tries to figure out what that means, even his own people, and the “complete” part disappears because business depends on foreign hires, higher ed depends on foreign students, farms depend on foreign labor, and the final policy is a 60 day pause on green cards.

Flip that around and announce a 60 day pause on new green cards to allow preparation of a cohesive immunological policy on immigration, and that looks a lot better.

So whether Trump does good things periodically or not is almost impossible to decipher, because the manner in which he does everything is so obliterated by his built-in white noise machine that whatever value is there is almost completely covered over.

Like Fauci said - they can only give him the information, they can’t jump in front of the microphone when he gets it wrong. He’s the President.

[zachateseverything]

This is ridiculous. The protocol to use Hydroxycloroquine is to do it early before you need to go to the hospital. Once you need to be hospitalized it is way too late and has no value. It was very clear since the beginning of the treatment in Marseille.

With respect, there is no actual protocol to use Hydroxychloroquine for treating Covid-19. This is supposed to be used to treat Malaria, Lupus, and some other autoimmune disorders. Evidence that this does anything for Covid-19 is mixed at best. However there are well documented side effects attributed to this drug. It causes irregular heart beats in a large number of patients.

A small trial finds that hydroxychloroquine is not effective for treating coronavirus

[suspectdevice]

The French last used the Guillotine in ‘77.

Wonder if they have a national stockpile they might be willing to lend out to a historical former ally?

We can trade them some collateralized derivatives.

[sk_tle]

This is ridiculous. The protocol to use Hydroxycloroquine is to do it early before you need to go to the hospital. Once you need to be hospitalized it is way too late and has no value. It was very clear since the beginning of the treatment in Marseille.

There is no protocol, just a guy with NPD desperately freewheeling to get attention and glory. And no, I am not talking about the POTUS.

[Lionel]

I totally disagree but I won't waste any time trying to get into details and an argument here.

[htwoopup]

Correlation does not mean causation.

However, this is at worst a real problem of dereliction of duty in broadcasting and at best a reminder to all of us to use multiple sources....

Counties Where Sean Hannity Viewers Outnumber Tucker Carlson's Had More COVID-19 Deaths, Study Finds

[vertical_doug]

I totally disagree but I won't waste any time trying to get into details and an argument here.

This is Dr. Raoult? My understanding of the study is they gave it to people not very sick, and they all recovered. It's just as likely the patients all would have recovered whether administered the drug or not.
Was there a control group study yet?

It's a bit like my Dad drinking a lemon whiskey when he had a sore throat. Cured it everytime. I don't know why more doctors don't prescribe lemon whiskey for sore throats.

Exactly same logic.

[theflashunc]

I didn’t understand how Dirk’s comment follows from Lionel’s comment, but now Dirk’s comment is gone.

Honestly we are trying really hard to be fair about this. We’ve asked a number of people to stop with the name calling of political figures. We’ve asked people not so simply shout out accusations and instead support their criticism with news articles or other information from newspapers of record or scientific resources.

Politics is politics though. Everyone has a viewpoint. But we are trying to encourage it to move towards a more reasonable tone and fact based criticism.

One thing I will say, is that I have started being able to hear Trump’s advisors behind the things that Trump says. He has a strong will and a selective attention, so he feels he is saying what he heard from his advisors and perhaps rightly feeling frustrated and indignant when he is criticized for what he views as factual information from reputable sources. And if you read along the news thread of statements he’s made, articles written subsequently over several days start to figure out where the info came from and what information was actually presented to Trump. And sometimes, that info is good. It just never made it through the messenger.

In short, I think he has some good people working for him right now, but the loss in translation that occurs in the process of transmitting their findings to him is significant. Add to that his natural tendency to aggrandize everything and his thirst for dramatic pronouncements, he sets himself up time and again to get dissected by the media because that’s what they are trained to do (and that what they should do) when things come out sideways from people in government.

I just don’t think he is good at this. And if I was an advisor, I would tell him to decenter the daily briefings. Greet everyone and then stand aside. Let a chain of experts present the info. He’s just making it harder for himself to look presidential by trying to be the chief explainer. He’ll look better 100% if he projects confidence in what his people say, and the information reaches the country directly from the source of information.

For instance, on this immigration policy change, I can guess that there is a kernel of solid immunological practice behind it to reduce the influx of additional infections into the country. Just taking the shelter in place scheme and applying it to international scale. But he presented it before it was ready, he may have been sold on the idea by an advisor using the “protecting jobs” argument, and he is frustrated that what he calls his complete shut-down of travel from China in February has been shown to be anything but. So it becomes a complete stop on immigration in a tweet, and then there is a flurry of activity and news articles as everyone tries to figure out what that means, even his own people, and the “complete” part disappears because business depends on foreign hires, higher ed depends on foreign students, farms depend on foreign labor, and the final policy is a 60 day pause on green cards.

Flip that around and announce a 60 day pause on new green cards to allow preparation of a cohesive immunological policy on immigration, and that looks a lot better.

So whether Trump does good things periodically or not is almost impossible to decipher, because the manner in which he does everything is so obliterated by his built-in white noise machine that whatever value is there is almost completely covered over.

Like Fauci said - they can only give him the information, they can’t jump in front of the microphone when he gets it wrong. He’s the President.

Any reading of this administration's immigration policy as rooted in something other than a kind of scapegoating, racism and xenophobia -- as long as Stephen Miller is a senior advisor to the President and essentially his chief speechwriter -- is extremely naive, I think.

The President has been flailing for weeks now to lay blame for this crisis at the feet of anyone else and abdicate any "buck stops here" responsibility for what's happened. Immigrants are an easy target for that when we're obviously well past the point of worrying about immigration as the primary means of this virus spreading in the US.

The playboook hasn't changed, just the rallies are now the daily briefing on the pandemic. The President hasn't changed and will not change. This is who he is.

[Lionel]

This is Dr. Raoult? My understanding of the study is they gave it to people not very sick, and they all recovered. It's just as likely the patients all would have recovered whether administered the drug or not.
Was there a control group study yet?

It's a bit like my Dad drinking a lemon whiskey when he had a sore throat. Cured it everytime. I don't know why more doctors don't prescribe lemon whiskey for sore throats.

Exactly same logic.

Your understanding is not correct. They have been doing the most testing anywhere in France and gave the treatment to all the positives as early as possible. Their study has now many thousands of patients in it (forgot the exact number, it's going up everyday). They had about 5 to 10 deaths total. The treatment only works in early stages and is useless once in the ICU as the virus is not your problem anymore at that point. Many control study groups are ongoing, their results will be known once the epidemic is over.

[suspectdevice]

The study you are citing is useless for America, Lionel.
Poor people here do not have access to healthcare outside of going to the ICU to die.