Amazon campus in Seattle (biosphere content)

[Saab2000]

Stockholders - hey that's great. Let me tell you how concerned I am whether Amazon's stockholders benefit from all the tax breaks our city gave away for nothing.

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While I agree with what most people here are saying, I would bet many of us are stockholders if we own a mutual fund in a 401(k) or anywhere else. It is highly likely many of us own shares in companies we never imagined and we all like our retirement plans to be successful. People who hate oil companies probably own stock in oil companies. Those profits in our retirement plans don't come from nowhere.

The whole world is interconnected.

[fastupslowdown]

The deal in NYC was great for Amazon, but it sure seemed like it was straight out of those deals cities used to make for pro football teams and their stadiums (or the Yankees and their stadium) that offered the business the sky and the moon and just got road side kiosk in return. There are so many other things in NYC that need to be fixed, and adding Amazon into the mix was not going to fix those things. We have a public school system and a public housing authority that is totally ignored by the mayor. The Feds want to take charge of the public housing authority it is so bad. The subways break down daily. Everything is under construction. And we need higher property values? Okay so revenue will come in from Amazon's presence, but what are the real dollars when the concessions are figured in? Right now the city tax authority is considering a pied-a-terre tax for apartments over $5million that are not primary residences because of these owners don't pay state or city tax and don't pay significant amounts of sales tax because they aren't here. But then they are going to give Amazon a bunch of tax breaks? So we're not a tech center, or whatever, but we are still NYC. We still get 60 million tourists every year. Every morning the population of the NYC subway is equivalent to the 4th largest city in the country. We have plenty. We just need to fix it before it all slides off the side of Manhattan and falls into the Hudson.

But I think this has a lot to do with the fight that Bezos is going to have with the National Enquirer. He can do one or the other but not both. And he's going to fight with the National Enquirer and win, but those photos are going to come out and how's that going to work in a state legislature with varied petty agendas and unquenchable thirst for New York City money?

i thought about the stadium angle. but i dismissed it because stadiums deals have been studied and they're been proven to be net economic losers for cities after taking into account the subsidies. I don't think that would be the case with Amazon

[j44ke]

While I agree with what most people here are saying, I would bet many of us are stockholders if we own a mutual fund in a 401(k) or anywhere else. It is highly likely many of us own shares in companies we never imagined and we all like our retirement plans to be successful. People who hate oil companies probably own stock in oil companies. Those profits in our retirement plans don't come from nowhere.

The whole world is interconnected.

I am not villainizing Amazon shareholders. I just don't agree that their investment should be shored up by spending public funds on tax incentives.

[Corso]

While I agree with what most people here are saying, I would bet many of us are stockholders if we own a mutual fund in a 401(k) or anywhere else. It is highly likely many of us own shares in companies we never imagined and we all like our retirement plans to be successful. People who hate oil companies probably own stock in oil companies. Those profits in our retirement plans don't come from nowhere.

The whole world is interconnected.

100% correct.

Most people don't read the prospectus or financial reports to get the details. As long as it's positive, well, who cares?

I recall a few years back Bono was bitching about some company, all the while he was an investor, and most likely wasn't aware.

Tax breaks vs jobs: it's a tough call for some cities. The thing that sucks, is that tax incentives are thrown to attract new companies, while some life-long companies dedicated to a region get nada. And the cities cry when neglected companies decide to move...to get a better deal.

[j44ke]

i thought about the stadium angle. but i dismissed it because stadiums deals have been studied and they're been proven to be net economic losers for cities after taking into account the subsidies. I don't think that would be the case with Amazon

Well I am not sure I trust de Blasio or Cuomo not to be similarly deluded just in a different context. I like it better when they are fighting with each other.

[j44ke]

100% correct.

Most people don't read the prospectus or financial reports to get the details. As long as it's positive, well, who cares?

I recall a few years back Bono was bitching about some company, all the while he was an investor, and most likely wasn't aware.

Tax breaks vs jobs: it's a tough call for some cities. The thing that sucks, is that tax incentives are thrown to attract new companies, while some life-long companies dedicated to a region get nada. And the cities cry when neglected companies decide to move...to get a better deal.

You're not saying that being an investor prohibits you from criticism, are you?

I think the tax breaks issue looks to a lot of people like a handout to another corporation while just as you say, there are local efforts that are grinding along without a nod from the city. In fact, many of them are stooping beneath an ever more onerous regulatory weight created by the city.

[Mabouya]

You're not saying that being an investor prohibits you from criticism, are you?

Heck, some people buy shares in a company simply so they can submit proposals and go to the shareholders meeting, with the express purpose of criticizing the board and it's policies.

[snotrockets]

i thought about the stadium angle. but i dismissed it because stadiums deals have been studied and they're been proven to be net economic losers for cities after taking into account the subsidies. I don't think that would be the case with Amazon

Don't know about Amazon, but I'm certain California got f*cked up by tech companies not paying their fair share of taxes.

[Saab2000]

I am a GM stockholder and own literally dozens of shares. I may finally have to go to a shareholder meeting to protest this. Or praise it. And complain about their generally (see what I did there) shitty engineering.

But I’ll probably just sit back and earn tens of dollars in dividends each year.

General Motors starts taking orders for its electric bicycle

[Corso]

You're not saying that being an investor prohibits you from criticism, are you?

No, I didn't say that. Just agreeing with Saab--that many do not know what they are invested in.

[j44ke]

Well I just used Liquid Nails instead of lithium grease on the bolt threads on my rear derailleur after aligning the hanger. No honestly that's what I just did. I couldn't figure out why the nitrile glove was suddenly sticking to everything. Required a bit of time afterwards getting meticulous about cleaning. Pretty sure I got it all out.

So don't listen to me. I'll surely lead everyone down the path to destruction.

BTW - who else forgot it was Valentine's day?

[bcm119]

I’m not sure NYC understands what becoming a “tech hub” really means. It is a disaster here in the bay area. Every aspect of this area is affected by rampant inequality in large part caused by a new class of people who simply have more spending power than almost everyone else. What’s happening here is old fashioned capitalism run amok. Tech is the most efficient extractor of money from the masses the world has ever seen, and you’re either an extractor or you’re being extracted from. The bay area is a brutal free market battle of the fittest, essentially a libertarian wet dream, and the results are not pretty.

Despite what you might hear from the right, people aren’t fleeing the bay area because of high taxes and liberal policies. They are fleeing because they can’t compete. Listen to the young people, who understand this better than anyone right now. They’ve latched onto ‘socialism’ as a response to what they see happening. They may be young and idealistic and lack an understanding of what socialism actually is, but they are the canary in the coal mine.

[Tom]

Aside from my personal totally uninformed suspicion of incentives and knowing some of the NYS pay to play culture and seeing the infrastructure issues in NYC I wonder if we haven't dodged a bullet.

[rwsaunders]

What’s $4B among friends? The City of Pittsburgh, Allegheny County and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania went to court to protect the secrecy of their collective offer to Amazon, which inluded a bundle of incentives like land, grant funding and infrastructure improvements. In the end, John and Mary Q. Public threatened to take them down in the next election and the politicos caved in and unveiled the offer...after the selection was made of course. Who knows if you would ever find out the truth had the region been awarded the HQ2 site. Amazon claimed that the fiscal incentives weren’t the primary driver in terms of the location selection and based on this offer and others, that has some truth to it.

See what Pittsburgh offered in its failed Amazon HQ2 bid | TribLIVE

[j44ke]

I’m not sure NYC understands what becoming a “tech hub” really means. It is a disaster here in the bay area. Every aspect of this area is affected by rampant inequality in large part caused by a new class of people who simply have more spending power than almost everyone else. What’s happening here is old fashioned capitalism run amok. Tech is the most efficient extractor of money from the masses the world has ever seen, and you’re either an extractor or you’re being extracted from. The bay area is a brutal free market battle of the fittest, essentially a libertarian wet dream, and the results are not pretty.

Despite what you might hear from the right, people aren’t fleeing the bay area because of high taxes and liberal policies. They are fleeing because they can’t compete. Listen to the young people, who understand this better than anyone right now. They’ve latched onto ‘socialism’ as a response to what they see happening. They may be young and idealistic and lack an understanding of what socialism actually is, but they are the canary in the coal mine.

When I meet someone 35 or younger, almost invariably they've come from SF, especially if they are in tech. They are in the areas where Amazon was locating, and a lot of them formed the coalition with local long time residents in those areas to elect Ocasio-Cortez and toss out one of the standard bearers for traditional NY Democrats. So NYC as a whole may not know, but these kids do.

[Too Tall]

Well I just used Liquid Nails instead of lithium grease on the bolt threads on my rear derailleur after aligning the hanger. No honestly that's what I just did. I couldn't figure out why the nitrile glove was suddenly sticking to everything. Required a bit of time afterwards getting meticulous about cleaning. Pretty sure I got it all out.

So don't listen to me. I'll surely lead everyone down the path to destruction.

BTW - who else forgot it was Valentine's day?

Not me. I hold stock and I vote.

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[j44ke]

Josh, you are a man’s man.

[vertical_doug]

https://www.mercatus.org/system/file...o_far_-_v1.pdf

The top line numbers of 25,000 jobs at $150,000 avg pay sounds attractive, but in many PR News items, the devil will be in the details. It is safe to assume these are absolute best case numbers which project 10 yrs out into the future. Amazon corporate is all about the fine print, and I think the there are a lot of hidden demands coming from Amazon which would make NYS/NYC gag over the long run.

The PDF is from George Mason University. They make interesting arguments. I think it has a lot in common with stadiums because from the politician point of view, the decision is maximizing his political capital in both cases.

Since the politics turned against the deal, the positive political capital vanished.

[Dallas Tex]

Do any of the analysis or points of view consider the lesser quantifiable benefits of having an additional 25,000 hard working, bright, ambitious folks in a certain geographical area?

Forgive me if this was already addressed, I’m not going to read every link / post on this thread.

Folks are talking about the $3B ‘cost’ but wouldn’t it be more accurate to view this as potential revenues that won’t be collected? Potential revenues that now definitely won’t be collected since Amazon pulled out.

FWIW, in my region of our country folks would be thrilled to add 25,000 good new jobs to our regions’s economy along with the 25,000 bright, ambitious, good people that fill them.

[fastupslowdown]

Do any of the analysis or points of view consider the lesser quantifiable benefits of having an additional 25,000 hard working, bright, ambitious folks in a certain geographical area?

Forgive me if this was already addressed, I’m not going to read every link / post on this thread.

Folks are talking about the $3B ‘cost’ but wouldn’t it be more accurate to view this as potential revenues that won’t be collected? Potential revenues that now definitely won’t be collected since Amazon pulled out.

FWIW, in my region of our country folks would be thrilled to add 25,000 good new jobs to our regions’s economy along with the 25,000 bright, ambitious, good people that fill them.

sure prices will go up for real estate and some services, but increases local revenue means more funding for police, ambulances, roads get fixed etc. Right people who live in LIC all essentially work in Manhattan. Amazon would have changed that a bit with residents working and living in the same neighborhood. You would have seen new restaurannts and money spent locally instead of outside the neighborhood. And by extension if we had that attitude 20 years ago LIC would never have been developed and it would have remained an affordable place few people would want to live in. You could argue all the residential real estate development in LIC was also ill advised. -Mike G