2020 Political Chatter

[guido]

Barry Blitt in the latest NewYorker

[bcm119]

The liberal talking heads' confidence that Trump's coup attempt will not be successful is reminding me of their confidence that the Mueller investigation was the beginning of the end. I hope I'm just paranoid.

[Colinmclelland]

What would actually happen if Trump and his team could win some court cases?

I'm not saying he could/might/should.

But practically, people have been dancing in the street because you lost. You've seen that. How do you come back from that? What would/could winning look like to him? Genuinely curious. I get that he can't cope with losing, but how can you possibly fashion a win out of the current circumstances? I'd be resigning, getting Mike Pence to pardon me and everyone I know and going somewhere without an extradition treaty for good measure.

Him? Playing golf.

[vertical_doug]

What would actually happen if Trump and his team could win some court cases?

I'm not saying he could/might/should.

But practically, people have been dancing in the street because you lost. You've seen that. How do you come back from that? What would/could winning look like to him? Genuinely curious. I get that he can't cope with losing, but how can you possibly fashion a win out of the current circumstances? I'd be resigning, getting Mike Pence to pardon me and everyone I know and going somewhere without an extradition treaty for good measure.

Him? Playing golf.

In his mind, smiting his foes, getting vengeance and humiliating his enemies are winning.
The only people he can hear are those cheering him. His base certainly will do that. He will hold big rallies to make himself feel good. The people who go out in response to this and protest, are antifa (the enemy) and of no concern of his. If anything, he needs to punish them more.
There will be no effort to reconcile with the 'other side'. If anything, he will up the ante and demand on twitter to have Obama and Biden arrested for trying to steal the election.

I thought his golf outings over the weekend were really a tell he was giving up, but in reality it is just his id. (He wanted to play golf, that's what he does.)

[j44ke]

What would actually happen if Trump and his team could win some court cases?

I'm not saying he could/might/should.

But practically, people have been dancing in the street because you lost. You've seen that. How do you come back from that? What would/could winning look like to him? Genuinely curious. I get that he can't cope with losing, but how can you possibly fashion a win out of the current circumstances? I'd be resigning, getting Mike Pence to pardon me and everyone I know and going somewhere without an extradition treaty for good measure.

Him? Playing golf.

https://www.propublica.org/article/i...s-what-happens

[BBB]

What would actually happen if Trump and his team could win some court cases?

I'm not saying he could/might/should.

But practically, people have been dancing in the street because you lost. You've seen that. How do you come back from that? What would/could winning look like to him? Genuinely curious. I get that he can't cope with losing, but how can you possibly fashion a win out of the current circumstances? I'd be resigning, getting Mike Pence to pardon me and everyone I know and going somewhere without an extradition treaty for good measure.

Him? Playing golf.

It is difficult to see him winning any court cases. You usually need some evidence in favour of the proposition you are seeking to make in order to properly press your case. Trump seems to have no supporting evidence and is relying on assertions and a presser abutting a sex shop. This is usually not the foundation for a good court case!

I don't think Trump really cares what winning looks like.

But, yes I would have thought resigning on the promise that Pence would provide a pardon (albeit that would require an admission of guilt by Trump, and that is unlikely) would be the best move. Otherwise the silly old b*gger is going to have to sit through a photo shoot of the hand over to Biden and a zillion people chanting "lock him up" at the inauguration and then potentially just that if he has committed tax fraud or some such.

Golf two days in a row. After losing an election. And with record Covid numbers. What a guy.

[jclay]

This: https://www.velocipedesalon.com/foru...win-55325.html

Breaktime chat is over.

Get to work!

[HorsCat]

The liberal talking heads' confidence that Trump's coup attempt will not be successful is reminding me of their confidence that the Mueller investigation was the beginning of the end. I hope I'm just paranoid.

No, you’re not paranoid. You’ve just been paying attention. They (Chump, Moscow Mitch, et al) are dead serious. Also Kemp. Let’s not forget that he had the gumption to steal an election once before.

[choke]

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies, 1945

I think that all intolerant speech should be allowed, no matter how vile or repugnant.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H.L. Mencken

[jimcav]

OMG I'm both saddened by and strangely satisfied by the stupidity of the trending FB posts from my wife's GOP "friends". All about how THEY are ANGRY, but aren't burning cities...such a false comparison. Disappointment over an election result somehow equates to the decades of systemic racism and continuing outright extinction of black lives for infractions, which even if eventually proven, should NEVER support the rapid escalation to deadly force.

But there is of course a true comparison: the disappointment on the part of Dems in the 2016 election. Funny, I don't remember riots and arson then, either.

[bironi]

OMG I'm both saddened by and strangely satisfied by the stupidity of the trending FB posts from my wife's GOP "friends". All about how THEY are ANGRY, but aren't burning cities...such a false comparison. Disappointment over an election result somehow equates to the decades of systemic racism and continuing outright extinction of black lives for infractions, which even if eventually proven, should NEVER support the rapid escalation to deadly force.

But there is of course a true comparison: the disappointment on the part of Dems in the 2016 election. Funny, I don't remember riots and arson then, either.

I wonder how these persons teach their children well.

[guido]

Growing Discomfort at Law Firms Representing Trump in Election Lawsuits | New York Times

"Like many big law firms, Jones Day, whose roots go back to Cleveland in the late 1800s, has prided itself on representing controversial clients.

There was Big Tobacco. There was the Bin Laden family. There was even the hated owner of the Cleveland Browns football team as he moved the franchise to Baltimore.

Now Jones Day is the most prominent firm representing President Trump and the Republican Party as they prepare to wage a legal war challenging the results of the election. The work is intensifying concerns inside the firm about the propriety and wisdom of working for Mr. Trump, according to lawyers at the firm.

Doing business with Mr. Trump — with his history of inflammatory rhetoric, meritless lawsuits and refusal to pay what he owes — has long induced heartburn among lawyers, contractors, suppliers and lenders. But the concerns are taking on new urgency as the president seeks to raise doubts about the election results.

Some senior lawyers at Jones Day, one of the country’s largest law firms, are worried that it is advancing arguments that lack evidence and may be helping Mr. Trump and his allies undermine the integrity of American elections, according to interviews with nine partners and associates, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to protect their jobs."

[guido]

It may seem like a stretch, but I don’t think Esper is getting fired for saying no to a request a couple months ago. I think it is more immediate - as in the last day or so.

That's a bit chilling to consider...

[Too Tall]

I could see a Federal seizure of ballots happening. That’s effectively what is being requested in suits brought forth in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania where the campaign is demanding “meaningful access” as in hands-on scrutiny of ballots.

There is no separation at this point between Trump’s re-election campaign and the Federal
Gov. They are the same.

It may seem like a stretch, but I don’t think Esper is getting fired for saying no to a request a couple months ago. I think it is more immediate - as in the last day or so.

Pssst....States rights much? Votes have been counted. Each State has hard and fast rules. That's a wiff and a miss. Real lawyers please chime in.

For the record (again) this is all about brand and raising $$ now and future $$ to line pockets. The GOP and specifically team Orange have zero confidence in reversing this election.

I really need to unplug, PTDTSS is real.

[htwoopup]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. But this struck me as an interesting play from a TV station in a law suit.

From the Hollywood Reporter....

Throughout the nation, Donald Trump is mounting a long-shot, last-ditch legal effort to stop Joe Biden from being certified the winner of the 2020 presidential election. But there's one judge being asked to basically declare Trump the election loser.
It comes in the lawsuit brought by Trump's campaign against Northland Television, the small owner of an NBC affiliate in Wisconsin which had broadcast an advertisement from the super PAC Priorities USA. Rather unusually, Trump sued in April over an advertisement that carried his statement, "This is their new hoax," in reference to the novel coronavirus. The Trump Campaign alleges through its suit that audio clips were pieced together in a misleading fashion, and that when Trump mentioned "hoax" during a South Carolina rally, he was referring to how his political opponents were characterizing his response to the coronavirus.
The defendant previously brought a motion to dismiss with the argument that the statements were not "of and concerning" Donald J. Trump for President, the nominal plaintiff. Instead, the television station argued that the commercial referred to President Trump himself.
There may have been legal advantages to suing through a campaign apparatus, but now Northland is seizing upon the plaintiff's fate.
"With the election now decided against him, the Trump Campaign’s work has ended, and so should this defamation lawsuit," states a new supplemental motion. "[T]the results of the 2020 presidential election provide a new and independent basis to dismiss the Complaint under Rule 12(b)(1). His campaign lost both Wisconsin’s 10 electoral votes and the presidency. Plaintiff Donald J. Trump for President, Inc. (the 'Trump Campaign Committee' or the 'Committee') now lacks standing to maintain this suit, as it no longer may claim a redressable 'injury,' as Article III of the United States Constitution requires, sufficient to sustain this claim."
If there's anything that the conservatives at the Supreme Court will not tolerate, it's lack of standing

[j44ke]

Pssst....States rights much? Votes have been counted. Each State has hard and fast rules. That's a wiff and a miss. Real lawyers please chime in.

For the record (again) this is all about brand and raising $$ now and future $$ to line pockets. The GOP and specifically team Orange have zero confidence in reversing this election.

I really need to unplug, PTDTSS is real.

Legal experts have been debating things like this from well before the election. The Executive branch has already used end-runs around states rights this year - see Portland OR. And Trump has frequently used the lack of enforcement power in Congress and the Judiciary to ignore judgements against the Executive branch. I'm not a wacko. The possibility of seizure of ballots has been part of the discussion for a while.

https://blog.harvardlawreview.org/a-...never-counted/

[htwoopup]

https://blog.harvardlawreview.org/a-...never-counted/

This may be the most frightening thing I have ever read on any subject. Put it together with (as you surmised) Esper being fired now and then add in that immediately after that Barr said AG’s should look at election fraud.

Just chilling.

[zachateseverything]

I think that all intolerant speech should be allowed, no matter how vile or repugnant.

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." - H.L. Mencken

Please define allowed. From my viewpoint no one is being denied the ability to say whatever vile stuff they want. It's just that there will be obvious repercussions for doing so. That might mean getting booted from a job or a social media platform.

[choke]

Please define allowed. From my viewpoint no one is being denied the ability to say whatever vile stuff they want. It's just that there will be obvious repercussions for doing so. That might mean getting booted from a job or a social media platform.

I was referring to the quote by Karl Popper, specifically this part: But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force

[cash05458]

well, the disturbing thing is that now: even questioning these shady results via an American election....is gas lighted by the media and the winners as being un-american and anti democratic...that's crazy...and to be honest, if you look at the numbers rolling in for Joe late in the game it is certainly ok to look into that...I actually voted for Biden...but it ain't about my team winning...I have seen south american dictators do a better job at faking an election and making it seem more real than this game...the point is what sorta country do you want to live in and how far you are going to lose your values for a win as regimes will certainly change...and new values are set up...i.e precedent and the ongoing...short term gains usually in life lead to hard head on turns...and crashes...self interest and doing the right thing ideally don't have to be so disconnected...well, ideally...hopefully...again, I voted for Biden...but this mob mentality with the help with media is going to go badly...just my thought...