I voted

[Dallas Tex]

If they have been released back into society, why shouldn't they be allowed to vote?

Because they are felons, excons.

My view of a prison system is to rehabilitate those who have committed crimes, not label them a criminal with fewer rights for the rest of their lives

My view of the prison system is to protect society from folks that choose to harm people.

I just don’t think a convicted drunk driver that permanently injured someone deserves the right to help choose our lawmakers. The drunk driver’s victims have to live with injuries the rest of their lives, the perpetrator needs to live with the result of his bad decisions for the rest of his life too.

Just my opinion, you’re welcome to your opinion.

[davids]

So your view of criminal punishment is that it should be for a lifetime, full stop. It's a kind of retribution and it should not be time limited.

Many of your fellow humans would disagree with your philosophy.

[Dallas Tex]

So your view of criminal punishment is that it should be for a lifetime, full stop. It's a kind of retribution and it should not be time limited.

Many of your fellow humans would disagree with your philosophy.

Yes, I believe that rapists should receive life sentences, no parole. They inflicted a life ‘sentence’ on their victims.

I believe this mostly for the protection of society and piece of mind for their victims. Could you imagine a rape victim bumping into her rapist on an commuter flight some Monday morning on a business trip?

My humble opinions fall on the side of the victim rights take priority over the perpetrators ‘rights’.

[vertical_doug]

Yes, I believe that rapists should receive life sentences, no parole. They inflicted a life ‘sentence’ on their victims.

I believe this mostly for the protection of society and piece of mind for their victims. Could you imagine a rape victim bumping into her rapist on an commuter flight some Monday morning on a business trip?

My humble opinions fall on the side of the victim rights take priority over the perpetrators ‘rights’.

Daltex,

I do not think anyone really disagrees with you on giving sex-offenders, murders harsh sentences. However, you are assuming most felons are these violent types. What if most felons are really just poor because they were arrested on some charge, unable to raise bail, so instead of waiting in jail for 12+ months for their case to come to trial, they accepted a plea bargain from the prosecutor. Now, with probation it is easy to fall into the justice system fee trap. 65% of people in jail are their because they cannot afford bail. 18% of people in Rhode Island jails are their because they have fallen behind on justice system fees. You can see how this can become a treadmill. We need to have prison/criminal justice reform and it needs to include bail reform. I'll look for a statistic on convictions, but there is one charity who are financing bails for the poor, instead of the 90% plea bargain conviction, the conviction at trial falls to 4%.

Felony Conviction Rates Have Risen Sharply, But Unevenly | The Pew Charitable Trusts

The Bail Project | Poverty is not a crime.

Detaining the Poor: How money bail perpetuates an endless cycle of poverty and jail time | Prison Policy Initiative

[dgaddis]

I think Amendment 4 passing in Florida restoring the rights of ex-Felons to vote will have a much larger impact on 2020 than people believe. 1 in 10 Floridians have a felony record, so approximately 1.4mm people.

^^Is that really true???? No wonder there's so many It Happened In Florida stories....

[vertical_doug]

^^Is that really true???? No wonder there's so many It Happened In Florida stories....

I should qualify it with 1 in 10 adults.... It's not even the highest for states. I don't even think it is top 3.
See the Pew link I posted above.

Georgia is 15% with 3% currently on probation.

[Dallas Tex]

Daltex,
However, you are assuming most felons are these violent types.

Well the Florida law assumes that every felon convicted of anything short of murder & felony sex offenses deserves the right to influence law and our country's leadership. I'm going to assume that murderers that plead their case down to manslaughter can now exercise their right to influence our country's laws. I see no exclusions for violent child abusers and non-felony sex crimes.

This is where liberalism meets liberalism-lite. All or nothing type assumptions made for the good of the party.

[vertical_doug]

Well the Florida law assumes that every felon convicted of anything short of murder & felony sex offenses deserves the right to influence law and our country's leadership. I'm going to assume that murderers that plead their case down to manslaughter can now exercise their right to influence our country's laws. I see no exclusions for violent child abusers and non-felony sex crimes.

This is where liberalism meets liberalism-lite. All or nothing type assumptions made for the good of the party.

Except I believe the amendment was also heavily supported by Evangelicals. Something to do about doing your time and getting redemption. It passed with 64% of the vote and was also supported by the Koch Brothers.

[Dallas Tex]

Except I believe the amendment was also heavily supported by Evangelicals. Something to do about doing your time and getting redemption.

Let us not kid ourselves, this law was a push to increase votes for the democrats in Florida.

[vertical_doug]

Let us not kid ourselves, this law was a push to increase votes for the democrats in Florida.

would support partial restoration for those felons who never served time, where placed on probation , did service work and are now out of probation again?

would you support it if non-violent and violent felons were treated differently?


would you support this guy who petitioned and was rejected (placed in no action limbo)?

Anthony Benitez, 52, of Tampa, a carpenter with a college engineering degree, didn't get his rights back, 11 years after he petitioned the state. He said he has overcome drug and alcohol problems that led to multiple DUIs and fights with police officers.

"This was all 21 years ago. I'm not the same person," Benitez pleaded. Scott took Benitez's case under advisement, with no action.

[Dallas Tex]

would you support it if non-violent and violent felons were treated differently?

For some kid dealing weed & got caught up in the gears. YES. I'd also support his getting his record expunged if warranted.

Anthony Benitez, 52, of Tampa, a carpenter with a college engineering degree, didn't get his rights back, 11 years after he petitioned the state. He said he has overcome drug and alcohol problems that led to multiple DUIs and fights with police officers.

Multiple DUI's ? Nope. He's lucky he can walk free. He made his decisions, he should count his blessings he's not currently in jail.

[dgaddis]

Georgia is 15% with 3% currently on probation.

Where are you seeing those numbers? I found this, which shows 3.23% of Georgians aren't allowed to vote due to felony convictions :: State-by-State Data | The Sentencing Project

EDIT to add, here's the felony disenfranchisement rate for all the states :: http://www.sentencingproject.org/the...set-option=FDR

[vertical_doug]

Where are you seeing those numbers? I found this, which shows 3.23% of Georgians aren't allowed to vote due to felony convictions :: State-by-State Data | The Sentencing Project

EDIT to add, here's the felony disenfranchisement rate for all the states :: State-by-State Data | The Sentencing Project

Go to the Pew link.

Georgia restores the right to vote once the ex-felon has completed supervised release. So your 3.23% corresponds to my 3% of population on probation. Add another 334/100,000 for incarceration, and it is 3.34% so we are pretty close.

[vertical_doug]

Daltex,

I just check the fine print on amendment 4 text, so if you are an ex-felon convicted of murder or sexual offense, you still will need to petition the governor and cabinet for clemency.

BALLOT SUMMARY: This amendment restores the voting rights of Floridians with felony convictions after they complete all terms of their sentence including parole or probation. The amendment would not apply to those convicted of murder or sexual offenses, who would continue to be permanently barred from voting unless the Governor and Cabinet vote to restore their voting rights on a case by case basis.

Now since you are excluding the most egregious cases, don't you think it is better to err to the side of inclusion vs. exclusion since obviously some ex-felons even in your world deserve clemency as you stated above.
D

[Dallas Tex]

Daltex,


Now since you are excluding the most egregious cases, don't you think it is better to err to the side of inclusion vs. exclusion since obviously some ex-felons even in your world deserve clemency as you stated above.
D

No.

Err on the side of whats best for society and the victims of these criminals.


And you quoted the law incorrectly. The law only excludes felony sexual convictions.

[Matthew Strongin]

Let us not kid ourselves, this law was a push to increase votes for the democrats in Florida.

Well, considering it passed 64.5% to 35.5% in a state that leans ever so slightly Republican (but enough to swing red for most major elections) and has had Republican leadership for years, I'd argue that a large portion of the population would disagree with you. Also, while some argue it would flip the state D, some argue that it wouldn't: Ex-felon voting rights: why ex-felons voting probably won’t swing Florida - Vox

Also, even if it's true...if those reformed felons have been effectively disenfranchised due to a former harsh law on voting rights restoration, it's a good thing that Florida would begin to reflect a broader set of the populace.

But it's all moot, because the bottom line is that the state put it on the ballot, the people spoke with their votes, and the amendment was passed. We'll see in 2020 whether it dramatically influences the swing of the state or not.

[Dallas Tex]

But it's all moot, because the bottom line is that the state put it on the ballot, the people spoke with their votes, and the amendment was passed. We'll see in 2020 whether it dramatically influences the swing of the state or not.

Oh its definitely all moot. I'd guess a full 35% of the non-felon population doesn't vote. What are the odds of the felon population equaling or doing better than that?

[Matthew Strongin]

Oh its definitely all moot. I'd guess a full 35% of the non-felon population doesn't vote. What are the odds of the felon population equaling or doing better than that?

Pretty low. Most of the articles I've read on the subject indicate that former felons are likely to vote in low numbers. The only debate is whether those low numbers will swing in one direction or the other...or be a reflection of the rest of the population of the state.

[choke]

As an FYI, far more states allow convicted felons to vote than don't. Two states - Maine and Vermont - even allow them to vote while incarcerated.

This is obviously not up to date given the FL vote.... State Felon Voting Laws - Felon Voting - ProCon.org

And for the record, while I'm far to the right of most of you I see no reason that someone who has served their time should have their voting privileges revoked. But then I also feel that, other than for certain crimes, they should have all of their rights restored.

[Dallas Tex]

As an FYI, far more states allow convicted felons to vote than don't. Two states - Maine and Vermont - even allow them to vote while incarcerated.

This is obviously not up to date given the FL vote.... State Felon Voting Laws - Felon Voting - ProCon.org

And for the record, while I'm far to the right of most of you I see no reason that someone who has served their time should have their voting privileges revoked. But then I also feel that, other than for certain crimes, they should have all of their rights restored.

I love these discussion because i learn something new every time. I was shocked to discover Texas automatically restores voting rights upon release.