Michael Brown Shooting

[Will Neide]

tiananmen-square.jpg

Disprportionate force.

Here's my gripe with the reactions in Ferguson, de-militarization of the police, etc. If you want to eliminate SWAT type force, remove the "need" (real or perceived) for SWAT type force. When SWAT shows up, don't throw molotov cocktails at them. It justifies their need and presence. Would Martin Luther King Jr approve? No. Then don't do it. He accomplished far more than what will be accomplished in Ferguson. The waters are now muddy in Ferguson. It will never settle. I don't see how sending in the National Guard (an actual military) somehow is better than a militarized SWAT force. In my head, same response, same outcome, maybe worse. So we are against militarization, yet we want the military to step in?? All these discussions should be had. All this violent protesting drowns out the initial spark of a police shooting which is under investigation. Is the world ready to hear the facts/testimony? Will either side be satisfied when the verdict comes? I doubt it.

[Matthew J]

I'm hoping the throwing of bricks (one cop had his ankle broke), molotov cocktails, and shooting guns at cops is still unacceptable regardless of the presence of a SWAT force. Not sure if SWAT was there first or the molotiv cocktails were retaliatory. Does it really matter?

Are you there? I'm not. I'm reserving final thoughts until all the facts/stories are told. I was never a fan of mob mentality.

That goes to what Jitahs says above. In the last couple of years flowing any number of sporting wins large groups of mainly white kids have done a lot more damage to their surroundings than happened in Ferguson. In those cases the cops came out in shields, contained the crowds, diffused the situation. In Ferguson the cops came out with military artillery.

Sure, waiting for final analysis is fine and good. But your going to need to show a whole hell of lot more than a tossed brick and a few molotov cocktails to justify military vehicles and weapons.

And let's be clear about this, those were surplus military vehicles and weapons. In my book, not even SWAT teams should be using that sort of stuff. That is for the National Guard, not the police.

[Matthew J]

tiananmen-square.jpg

Disprportionate force.

Here's my gripe with the reactions in Ferguson, de-militarization of the police, etc. If you want to eliminate SWAT type force, remove the "need" (real or perceived) for SWAT type force. When SWAT shows up, don't throw molotov cocktails at them. It justifies their need and presence. Would Martin Luther King Jr approve? No. Then don't do it. He accomplished far more than what will be accomplished in Ferguson. The waters are now muddy in Ferguson. It will never settle. I don't see how sending in the National Guard (an actual military) somehow is better than a militarized SWAT force. In my head, same response, same outcome, maybe worse. So we are against militarization, yet we want the military to step in?? All these discussions should be had. All this violent protesting drowns out the initial spark of a police shooting which is under investigation. Is the world ready to hear the facts/testimony? Will either side be satisfied when the verdict comes? I doubt it.

The thing is even in hostage situations where a few perps have high powered rifles, military vehicles, high powered automatic weapons, dozens of officers in full body armor is a disproportinate. Cops can and have diffused some of the most horrific situations without that crap.

The only time military type force should be rolled out onto our streets is when there is a military type threat.

[Corso]

The question is not legitimate - it's loaded.

No one is failing to recognize there was some relatively minor misdeeds on the part of some of the protestors. Fact is, these are wholly beside the point. The point is whatever these few people did, a police response using military vehicles, tear gas and rubber bullet volleys was wholly disproportionate to what was happening on the street.

Your self-satisfied statement that the appropriate response by the Missouri police proves nothing is just demonstrates how much you are missing the point. The violence was worse Wednesday night than it was the first. Appropriate policing gets appropriate results, whether you want to admit you are wrong or not.

“relatively minor misdeeds”? Burning and looting? it was a beginning to what could have been much worse. How are the police supposed to know when it was going to end? You are still brushing it aside at the same time recognizing it.

If the police comes in with a flyswatter or a AR-15, and tells you to turn around and go home, guess what: you do it. You don’t use what’s in his hand as an EXCUSE to disobey, just like the shooting was an EXCUSE to steal from business that had nothing to do with Michael B.

Appropriate policing gets appropriate results? How about Appropriate behavior gets appropriate policing? And know what is appropriate behavior? NOT burning and looting and threatening to kill the police!

Know how to keep the police out of your neighborhood? Don’t break the law.

[AJPM44]

Loknor, please take no offense, I don’t know what country you are from, but I would not comment on a volatile event that happened where you live. Too many variables I would not know of, such as culture, law, history, etc.

In the not too distant past, in the southern part of the USA, dogs and water cannons were used against african americans. I don’t think anyone here would want to repeat those disgusting acts.

You live on the north shore of mass; that is as far from Ferguson in terms of culture, law, history, etc. as where ever Loknor may live.

[TMB]

I have a question - which is serious and asked that way. It is a question from an outsider looking on and frankly just amazed, but ...


My personal view is that the US is a bit of an outlier in the way that virtually every small town and city has its own police force. Why this is, or what led to it is another question but you look at a place like Ferguson, MO. Its own police department, with weapons systems no small town police force should have, or need.

Where do the people on these myriad small police forces come from to these jobs? What is their training and what is their continued training?


At least with State forces, large city forces, etc. there are training academies where you would expect that standards would be taught and enforced. What is the training for the people in all of small town independent police departments across the country??

Having seen and listened to the "chief" of the Ferguson department I would guess that training is minimal.

[chasea]

"Robbery." A teenager shoplifted some cigars. Yes, probably to smoke illegal drugs (lol, ok, just some pot)! Gawsh!

He was unarmed. Show of hands- Who wasn't a shitbag when they were 17? I have to remind myself this every time I take the subway as schools are letting out. So he's accused of shoplifting some cigars. Does that mean that an unarmed kid deserved to die?

A teenager shoplifts> SWAT teams, tear gas, riot gear, high-powered firearms. Who's responsible for more chaos in this scenario?

[Will Neide]

There is so much commentary that is tangential to this situation that it's nearly impossible to discuss it all in one sitting. And I mean, sit back, dig deep, and actually discuss. It will never happen. White folks can't discuss it or we're racist. "Privileged" people can't discuss it, because ya know, they're priviliged. Black folks can't discuss it because "it's cultural." Meanwhile, people do stupid crap, people respond stupidly, people get hurt. Faux outrage ensues.

You live on the north shore of mass; that is as far from Ferguson in terms of culture, law, history, etc. as where ever Loknor may live.

AMIRITE?

Where we are really doesn't say a whole lot about who we are, where we've been, and where we're going.

[coolberto hipsterdor]

Maybe if cops were community leaders instead of mentally ill soldiers we wouldn't have this problem...

(my dad was a cop)

[jitahs]

The militarisation of police departments around the US has been going on for years. Ever wonder what happens to the soldiers who returned from Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom have trouble reintegrating to civilian life?
They join the police.
There is nothing in the US--especially, Ferguson, Missouri--that even comes remotely close to a day in the life of a US soldier in Fallujah or Kabul. By this, I mean that many of the just-out-of-combat grunts have no business being in a police uniform in Anytown, America. You'll have to trust me having real life experience with this.
All of this is exacerbated by the zeitgeist since 2001 which has instilled fear and aggression in a majority of mainstream America.
How many of the officers in Ferguson are combat vets?
How has twenty years of war hardened and militarised authority in America?

The vestiges that are left are our heavily-militarized police forces (except in Oakland, forever hopelessly out-gunned), a de-manned (60,000) DHS and their simultaneous stockpiling of armaments, and the continued popularity of first-person-shooter video games.

[Corso]

You live on the north shore of mass; that is as far from Ferguson in terms of culture, law, history, etc. as where ever Loknor may live.

I live here now, that doesn’t say where I’m from or been. I don’t think you’ve added much here. But thanks for joining in.

[AJPM44]

Not sure why you are quoting me (with out the full context). My reply was in response to someone saying that "since so and so doesn't live here, he can't comment." I was just pointing out the fact that proximity doesn't equal a higher understanding. Be that as it may; I also live on the north shore, so I feel my response is appropriate to say that we are as far removed from Ferguson, MO as any other place.

[jitahs]

I have a question - which is serious and asked that way. It is a question from an outsider looking on and frankly just amazed, but ...


My personal view is that the US is a bit of an outlier in the way that virtually every small town and city has its own police force. Why this is, or what led to it is another question but you look at a place like Ferguson, MO. Its own police department, with weapons systems no small town police force should have, or need.

Where do the people on these myriad small police forces come from to these jobs? What is their training and what is their continued training?


At least with State forces, large city forces, etc. there are training academies where you would expect that standards would be taught and enforced. What is the training for the people in all of small town independent police departments across the country??

Having seen and listened to the "chief" of the Ferguson department I would guess that training is minimal.

Good training comes from real-life reps; Oakland PD on a resume is like a software architecture degree from Stanford to smaller police departments in the West. Appropriate use of force is consistently fine-tuned and passed down over the years. You can't teach that in a simulator or low-crime area.

[Matthew J]

“relatively minor misdeeds”? Burning and looting? it was a beginning to what could have been much worse. How are the police supposed to know when it was going to end? You are still brushing it aside at the same time recognizing it.

A Quick Mart was looted, a small fire was started. Photos show the building largely intact, The windows of a nail salon were broken. Such damage should not conceivably justify rolling heavy weapons such as one would expect to see in a combat situation onto the streets. The police are more than capable of diffusing without such a show of force as U.S. police forces aptly demonstrate in college towns all across the country.

If the police comes in with a flyswatter or a AR-15, and tells you to turn around and go home, guess what: you do it. You don’t use what’s in his hand as an EXCUSE to disobey, just like the shooting was an EXCUSE to steal from business that had nothing to do with Michael B.

It is not a question of what to do once the police come out in force. The question is whether in the United States of America which was founded largely on the notion the government should not use its military against its citizens should now be getting around those notions by turning small town police forces into military forces.

Appropriate policing gets appropriate results? How about Appropriate behavior gets appropriate policing? And know what is appropriate behavior? NOT burning and looting and threatening to kill the police!

Know how to keep the police out of your neighborhood? Don’t break the law.

Again, not a matter of police not being in the neighborhood - and police patrol my relatively crime free neighborhood all the time - it is a question of whether the police should be riding military vehicles, with multiple officers dressed in desert camo - (what on earth for?) training automatic weapons indiscriminately at peaceful protesters and rowdies alike.

[Matthew J]

Good training comes from real-life reps; Oakland PD on a resume is like a software architecture degree from Stanford to smaller police departments in the West. Appropriate use of force is consistently fine-tuned and passed down over the years. You can't teach that in a simulator or low-crime area.

I agree. To me anyway the take away is the Missouri State Police should have handled from the beginning. Ferguson and the other St. Louis County forces had no idea what they were doing. Yet they had weaponry which they darn well should not have had given their lack of understanding.

[Corso]

Not sure why you are quoting me (with out the full context). My reply was in response to someone saying that "since so and so doesn't live here, he can't comment." I was just pointing out the fact that proximity doesn't equal a higher understanding. Be that as it may; I also live on the north shore, so I feel my response is appropriate to say that we are as far removed from Ferguson, MO as any other place.

Loknor (country unknown) suggested using dogs and water cannon for crowd control, unaware of the American cultural disaster that would have been. Tanks rolling in China, although colorful, have little to do with this mess. We at least live in the same country and perhaps understand more, but based on what I’m reading here, I wonder what fantasy island some live on.

Cut to the core: A crime, no matter how small, is what started this whole mess.
Next the shopkeeper will be blamed for reporting the theft/assault!

Shoplifting/assault = Police called and (we can agree we don’t know what happened next) resulting in the killing

Killing = riots/ protest/looting, theft/burning = Riot cops

Riot cops = death threats, shooting at helicopters, Al sharpton, Jess Jackson, New black Panthers, racial conflict, media circus = “white privilege” discussion here.

Again no crime = no police.

[beeatnik]

Again no crime = no police.

Not quite. The City of Irvine, which is often the lowest crime mid-sized city in the country, has a very large police force. One could argue that they are as militarized as any in the country. Why does a city which averages a murder per decade need a SWAT (more than likely to protect the interests of the many corporations based in Irvine..but that's another debate)? In any case, there's "proactive policing" and there's proactive policing. In this country, the proactivity may depend on the color of your skin. Why is that so hard for you to process?

[Corso]

Not quite. The City of Irvine, which is often the lowest crime mid-sized city in the country, has a very large police force. One could argue that they are as militarized as any in the country. Why does a city which averages a murder per decade need a SWAT (more than likely to protect the interests of the many corporations based in Irvine..but that's another debate)? In any case, there's "proactive policing" and there's proactive policing. In this country, the proactivity may depend on the color of your skin. Why is that so hard for you to process?

Not hard to process at all. The police go to where they are required. “Proactivity” as you call it, is (in this country) based on past behavior.

Do you get it?

[Chad]

Maybe if cops were community leaders instead of mentally ill soldiers we wouldn't have this problem...

(my dad was a cop)

I call bullshit. I also call bullshit on the earlier post with the same message. I work with LE everyday and this simply isn't true. I'll spare you my opinions as everyone has their own. Wait for the facts about this specific incident to come to light and then make your decision regarding a single officers actions.

How the department responded after the fact is another matter entirely.

Law enforcement officers are certified by the state in which they reside. Similar to basic training. From there it all depends on the size, budget and nature of the department in which they work. For the record I fear small town justice, in my state anyway.

[jitahs]

Not quite. The City of Irvine, which is often the lowest crime mid-sized city in the country, has a very large police force.

Out of curiosity, do SoCal cops yell at the bros to pull up their pants? Apparently Ferguson cops do.