Frame builder boom

[swoop]

you know the people with the dogs.. where the dogs become their kids... the 'dog-child'.
well, my bike is (sadly) my 'bike-child'.

i think there's a lot of dudes like me. it doesn't take but for a few hundred customers to have a waiting list....
what we have here is the point at which instant gratification and disposable income meet the old world where things take time and feel personal.

[Bike Rider]

The Treks, Giants and Cannondales etc... are far more expensive than they could be and chock full of marketing features designed not to improve the bike, but their desirability on the showroom floor. For the most part every other major brand follows suit, the bikes ride ok in spite of all the "engineering" and design work done to them. Any one of them could build incredibly inexpensive tubular framed aluminum bikes for dirt cheap that are just as good in every regard as their carbon monstrosites, but they can't figure out how to make enough profit out of them, or create enough lust, as at their heart, they are huge entities devoid of all direction or passion.

Specilaized is by far the worst in this regard, and they further increase their overhead by branding every concievable "fit" device known to man and beast, expensive "patent" protection legal overhead, and by having 10+ product managers that make nearly 6 figures. They may do a lot of gross sales numbers, but with zero ownership of their manufacturing facilites and zero domestc manufacturing capacity a huge, IE 60% of their revenue never even sets foot domestically, and the rest of it is concentrated in the hands of 40 some-odd people.

What good does that do? I say none.

Call me a hippie, but I beleive in bussiness as social change. Marketing and advertising are the only legitimate forms of discourse allowed to us by "The Complex", and if it takes dynamiting a few bridges to put the Specializeds of the world out of bussiness, or at least make them shrink and re-think their bussiness model, so be it.

To put it bluntly, IMHO, at this moment in the bike industry, building bikes domestically that are both better and cheaper, by a significant margin than the overwhelming flood of Asian bikes, and selling them without the use of acronyms and lies is the course of action that will begin to terrify the big guys. And that's what gets me personally out of bed every day, the desire to physically do harm to, pester and annoy corporations that I feel do psychic damage to the consumers and contribute to the economic and social destruction of the country... I try to make a dent in the industry that I know, with the tools I have. We need to re-define and simplify our relationships, both as consumers and an industry, and stick a pin in the hot-air ballon that props up all the bullshit.

I'm glad that you don't apply this logic to the component groups. Without the big boys, we would all be ridding inferior products at 10X the cost.

[Catulle]

The Treks, Giants and Cannondales etc... are far more expensive than they could be and chock full of marketing features designed not to improve the bike, but their desirability on the showroom floor. For the most part every other major brand follows suit, the bikes ride ok in spite of all the "engineering" and design work done to them. Any one of them could build incredibly inexpensive tubular framed aluminum bikes for dirt cheap that are just as good in every regard as their carbon monstrosites, but they can't figure out how to make enough profit out of them, or create enough lust, as at their heart, they are huge entities devoid of all direction or passion.

Specilaized is by far the worst in this regard, and they further increase their overhead by branding every concievable "fit" device known to man and beast, expensive "patent" protection legal overhead, and by having 10+ product managers that make nearly 6 figures. They may do a lot of gross sales numbers, but with zero ownership of their manufacturing facilites and zero domestc manufacturing capacity a huge, IE 60% of their revenue never even sets foot domestically, and the rest of it is concentrated in the hands of 40 some-odd people.

What good does that do? I say none.

Call me a hippie, but I beleive in bussiness as social change. Marketing and advertising are the only legitimate forms of discourse allowed to us by "The Complex", and if it takes dynamiting a few bridges to put the Specializeds of the world out of bussiness, or at least make them shrink and re-think their bussiness model, so be it.

To put it bluntly, IMHO, at this moment in the bike industry, building bikes domestically that are both better and cheaper, by a significant margin than the overwhelming flood of Asian bikes, and selling them without the use of acronyms and lies is the course of action that will begin to terrify the big guys. And that's what gets me personally out of bed every day, the desire to physically do harm to, pester and annoy corporations that I feel do psychic damage to the consumers and contribute to the economic and social destruction of the country... I try to make a dent in the industry that I know, with the tools I have. We need to re-define and simplify our relationships, both as consumers and an industry, and stick a pin in the hot-air ballon that props up all the bullshit.

+1. I agree. What did you say? Don't matter. I agree. Just one observation, hippies are for opiate love and peace, you're better than that. Ramble on.

[Chris]

The Treks, Giants and Cannondales etc... are far more expensive than they could be and chock full of marketing features designed not to improve the bike, but their desirability on the showroom floor. For the most part every other major brand follows suit, the bikes ride ok in spite of all the "engineering" and design work done to them. Any one of them could build incredibly inexpensive tubular framed aluminum bikes for dirt cheap that are just as good in every regard as their carbon monstrosites, but they can't figure out how to make enough profit out of them, or create enough lust, as at their heart, they are huge entities devoid of all direction or passion.

...

Call me a hippie, but I beleive in bussiness as social change. Marketing and advertising are the only legitimate forms of discourse allowed to us by "The Complex", and if it takes dynamiting a few bridges to put the Specializeds of the world out of bussiness, or at least make them shrink and re-think their bussiness model, so be it.

To put it bluntly, IMHO, at this moment in the bike industry, building bikes domestically that are both better and cheaper, by a significant margin than the overwhelming flood of Asian bikes, and selling them without the use of acronyms and lies is the course of action that will begin to terrify the big guys. And that's what gets me personally out of bed every day, the desire to physically do harm to, pester and annoy corporations that I feel do psychic damage to the consumers and contribute to the economic and social destruction of the country... I try to make a dent in the industry that I know, with the tools I have. We need to re-define and simplify our relationships, both as consumers and an industry, and stick a pin in the hot-air ballon that props up all the bullshit.

Although I hear you on the overbuilding and marketing of these bikes (I still think the CAAD9 is the BEST frame that Cannondale offers), I really feel like there is an appropriate quote from Yoda out there somewhere to address from where you find your motivation...

[suspectdevice]

\
reading it. The guys and Cannondale, Trek, Specialzed, Giant are all very capable of
making a rockin' race bike.

As I see it, the challenge is the business side of making things in the USA. It's not about the product
being good, it's about the economics of manufacturing.


-g

And who there makes their high-end product domestically? None. Trek seems to finish their composite structures in house, but the metal forgings are asian, as are the bulk of the blow-molded lug pieces. The new Carbon Cannondale regime is 100% Asian, or asian carbon bonded to PA metal. And Giant? Giant is the company that is making everything for everyone else. I doubt their is a single frame fixture or even cnc mil at Giant USA.

All of their low-end product (the bread and butter that keeps them in business) is from the East. Changing the economics of manufacturing should be the goals of these businesses. Survival is at stake here. Shimano prices just went up 20-30% at the wholesale level, and most of the taiwanese frame houses needed to increase their pricing by about 20% already this year, not even including shipping costs.

The writing is on the wall, and as the dollar continues to fall, and the American population continues to be less awake every day, it creates great opportunities to turn this nation, once again into a manufacturing powerhouse. We have a docile population that is remarkably well controlled, we have immense vacant industrial space, and the rest of the industrialized world has currency that is worth 2x ours, and economies that are near collapse. I smell the ozone from the Tig Welders now... Smells like Freedom

[davids]

The Treks, Giants and Cannondales etc... are far more expensive than they could be and chock full of marketing features designed not to improve the bike, but their desirability on the showroom floor. For the most part every other major brand follows suit, the bikes ride ok in spite of all the "engineering" and design work done to them. Any one of them could build incredibly inexpensive tubular framed aluminum bikes for dirt cheap that are just as good in every regard as their carbon monstrosites, but they can't figure out how to make enough profit out of them, or create enough lust, as at their heart, they are huge entities devoid of all direction or passion.

Specilaized is by far the worst in this regard, and they further increase their overhead by branding every concievable "fit" device known to man and beast, expensive "patent" protection legal overhead, and by having 10+ product managers that make nearly 6 figures. They may do a lot of gross sales numbers, but with zero ownership of their manufacturing facilites and zero domestc manufacturing capacity a huge, IE 60% of their revenue never even sets foot domestically, and the rest of it is concentrated in the hands of 40 some-odd people.

What good does that do? I say none.

Call me a hippie, but I beleive in bussiness as social change. Marketing and advertising are the only legitimate forms of discourse allowed to us by "The Complex", and if it takes dynamiting a few bridges to put the Specializeds of the world out of bussiness, or at least make them shrink and re-think their bussiness model, so be it.

To put it bluntly, IMHO, at this moment in the bike industry, building bikes domestically that are both better and cheaper, by a significant margin than the overwhelming flood of Asian bikes, and selling them without the use of acronyms and lies is the course of action that will begin to terrify the big guys. And that's what gets me personally out of bed every day, the desire to physically do harm to, pester and annoy corporations that I feel do psychic damage to the consumers and contribute to the economic and social destruction of the country... I try to make a dent in the industry that I know, with the tools I have. We need to re-define and simplify our relationships, both as consumers and an industry, and stick a pin in the hot-air ballon that props up all the bullshit.

Dude, they're marketing one image. You're marketing another.

I don't really believe Trek or Specialized is the enemy. I save that kind of vitriol for General Dynamics.

[e-RICHIE]

Dude, they're marketing one image. You're marketing another.

I don't really believe Trek or Specialized is the enemy. I save that kind of vitriol for General Dynamics.

says it all atmo.
one world.

[Catulle]

"But it's his human qualities I place my trust in." Kafka, Franz. "The Trial".

[suspectdevice]

Dude, they're marketing one image. You're marketing another.

I don't really believe Trek or Specialized is the enemy. I save that kind of vitriol for General Dynamics.

And I would hope Dunkin Donuts.

[dbrk]

snip...All of their low-end product (the bread and butter that keeps them in business) is from the East. Changing the economics of manufacturing should be the goals of these businesses. Survival is at stake here. ..snip but include all the stuff...
The writing is on the wall, and as the dollar continues to fall, and the American population continues to be less awake every day, it creates great opportunities to turn this nation, once again into a manufacturing powerhouse. We have a docile population that is remarkably well controlled, we have immense vacant industrial space, and the rest of the industrialized world has currency that is worth 2x ours, and economies that are near collapse. I smell the ozone from the Tig Welders now... Smells like Freedom

Building bikes on scale requires economies of scale in cost, profit, etc. Are you suggesting that north Americans can build bikes at a cost that will bring this industry here? I think that's not going to happen. It's a Brave New World and everyone needs everyone. It's less important where things are made than other issues, including ethical ones, about how the companies treat those who work.

I'm happy to pay more for a relationship, like the one I have with small shop/individual bike builders. I even prefer paying more than giving up more to a corporation but not for the "quality" of object but for the relationship. I prefer a closer relationship than I have with corporate entities, especially those of scale. I'm sympathetic to your politics though I think you are blending, perhaps confusing, some sort of nativist nationalism with global economies of scale. I don't think we'll save the world making things locally but rather by understanding the relationships we are creating.

[e-RICHIE]

there's niche, and there's everything else.

if the art could be cloned, nobody would want it. but since it can be
copied and produced, the dealers can get inventory from the suits who
help to create a demand demand, who in turn, get their product to the
loading docks as cost effectively and efficiently as possible, and folks are
happy because the LBS can sell the same bicycle that sastre and lance
won on. and if/when the consumer(s) tire of the cookie cutter-ness of
it all, they can call some of us at 1 800 niche atmo.

what's the big deal here?

[jerk]

And I would hope Dunkin Donuts.

fuck you. dunkin donuts is cheap, clean and you can take your family there.

jerk

[Catulle]

there's niche, and there's everything else.

if the art could be cloned, nobody would want it. but since it can be
copied and produced, the dealers can get inventory from the suits who
help to create a demand demand, who in turn, get their product to the
loading docks as cost effectively and efficiently as possible, and folks are
happy because the LBS can sell the same bicycle that sastre and lance
won on. and if/when the consumer(s) tire of the cookie cutter-ness of
it all, they can call some of us at 1 800 niche atmo.

what's the big deal here?

1 800 niche atmo That number's got too many numbers. That's from an ATT recording.

[jerk]

ps. the only thing that's going to save domestic heavy industry is universal nationalized healthcare. big industry can't afford to pay for it for their workers/pensioners here anymore. that's why its cheaper to make shit elsewhere.

jerk

[swoop]

i can't imagine divesting a bike purchase of emotions.
you give me a team bike and you're paying me to not have any emotions about it. but if i'm buying a bike... its about other things. this started at my first bike... my candy red schwinn stingray...
and its been that way ever since.
the anti establishment and the establishment are an old married couple. the boutique market is booming because the mass produced market gives it a reason to be.


its all good stuff.

[e-RICHIE]

the boutique market is booming because the mass produced market gives it a reason to be.

that should be the last word on this atmo.

[JimD]

That Bianchi seat tube lug looks MP to me.

Also, Dave Kirk talked about ignorance is bliss. Is everyone here familiar with the four stages of aptitude?

1. Unconcious incompetence - you suck so bad you aren't even aware of it
2. Concious incompetence - you still suck but you are aware of why you suck
3. Concious competence - you are good but remember when you sucked
4. Unconcious competence - you are good and you don't remember why

Dave, I first heard about these stages of learning/aptitue in an autocross school. I can definitely relate to unconcious incompetence. So can the poor cones.

This is a good thread. It makes me think of the professional live sound reinforcement business. Anyone can buy microphones, a mixer, amps, and speakers and run sound for a live concert. That doesn't mean the guy running the board knows jack about the science of acoustics. It might be a good sound, but he probably can't explain why its a good sound and it might just be dumb luck. Also, he probably can't turn a bad sound into a good sound because he doesn't understand the underlying science. Running live sound is part art and part science and the best know both sides of the same coin, just like framebuilding.

...and maybe
5. imperfect perfection?

-JimD

[Catulle]

Not my favorite topic, of course, but a crafty sob with some gov. support can do wonders. Re Hayek and the Swiss watch industry. Just when the Swiss (landlocked pirates of the first order) watchmakers were on count nine from a great jab, straight right, hook combination from the Japanese, Hayek found the production/marketing formula to reverse the situation.

To make a long story short, the Swiss kept the immensely profitable low numbers/ high margin segment of the market, and the Japanese ended up with the el cheapo stuff. Of course, there are many before, in between, and after aspects to this story but the gist of it stands.

[GrantM]

And who there makes their high-end product domestically? None.

how about a few at Cannondale?

Carbon Super-Six frames are made in Bedford,
as are a whole bunch of very nice Mountain bikes.

-g

[slowtwitch]

People are going to spend where they wish. Want to wait in line for a crap frame from a 20 year old with a penchant for polishing stainless? Go ahead. I'd rather pop a LandShark, or any number of other of bikes. In the big scheme, probably not a big deal either way.

Builders have to start somewhere though. I was privy, due to my location, to see quite a few earlier bikes from a builder mentioned in this thread, and they very much looked like someone's 'learners'. No harm no foul, and now a very esteemed builder for good reasons.

Follow the timeline back far enough, and all the 'greats' made some shaky stuff at some point. What they billed their work as (if anything) is a different matter. As stated, times have changed, and you can throw you hat into the ring with a few key strokes. This is not unique to framebuilding.