vw scandal

[Will Neide]

Was just surprised by the number of ECU updates from VW on a simple little car.

Wait til Apple makes a car...

[vertical_doug]

In general I cannot understand why the fact that a passenger vehicle burns diesel over gas is even a selling point. You might get somewhat higher mpg depending on the make/model, but at least where I live diesel not as available as gas, and is generally more expensive than gas. So even if you experience higher mpgs with a diesel, the cost/mile driven is more even when factoring in the price of diesel vs gas. If you're an environmentalist, diesel in general burns dirtier, so if you want to get away from pumping oil, buy a hybrid. Factor in maintenance costs of VWs, and you're probably behind...

Commence someone extolling on the awesomeness of diesel in 3..2..1..

It doesn't make sense in the U.S. with low fuel costs and tax. In Europe where fuel costs are much higher, and taxes at the pump make diesel cheaper than gas, it does make economic sense.

It has nothing to do with awesome and just a consequence of gov taxes.

[vertical_doug]

Wait til Apple makes a car...

They will do it right. After 3 years, they will stop supporting the software and force you to upgrade.

[znfdl]

In general I cannot understand why the fact that a passenger vehicle burns diesel over gas is even a selling point. You might get somewhat higher mpg depending on the make/model, but at least where I live diesel not as available as gas, and is generally more expensive than gas. So even if you experience higher mpgs with a diesel, the cost/mile driven is more even when factoring in the price of diesel vs gas. If you're an environmentalist, diesel in general burns dirtier, so if you want to get away from pumping oil, buy a hybrid. Factor in maintenance costs of VWs, and you're probably behind...

Commence someone extolling on the awesomeness of diesel in 3..2..1..

BSUdude: In NOVA diesel is a few cents more expensive than regular gas, it was a pretty easy decision considering that we own our cars for usually 10 or more years. The problem for me, is that we were going to buy a second diesel to replace our 18 year old volvo. Not sure what we are going to do, as hybrids do not make much sense to me. It will be interesting to see how VW responds in the short and medium term. Meanwhile have to start looking for a different car.

[robin3mj]

I got a tax credit for the full price differential between diesel and gas the year I bought mine (those credits are no longer offered) which shortens the payback period significantly.

I had planned on driving our Sportwagen into the ground but the arrival of baby two and three this fall have changed our needs a bit. Needless to say I will not be happy if my resale value tanks.

[FSonicSmith]

Well, from my perspective only, the appeal of diesel is not just mileage or fuel tank range, but also the technology that goes into a passenger car diesel engine which, for me, means low end torque and engine longevity. VW diesels commonly go well over 200,000 and even 300,000 miles. It no doubt sounds silly, but it appeals to me that there are no spark plugs or a distributor to go bad. Like I told a buddy who drives a Lexus the other day, I know that VW is generally less reliable and makes less sense from a strict dollars and sense standpoint than Toyotas, Hondas, etc, but life is short. I like VWs. I find Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords to be utterly boring, no matter how sensible they might be. It's something you use practically every day, and far more justifiable than a real dollar-sucking discretionary item like, say, a boat. Now admittedly, my admiration for the technology USED to extend to the idea of clean diesel and now that is gone. There is then the headache of the 10,000 mile service fuel filter replacement and AdBlue top-ups. Anyone who says it is hard to find diesel must be living in a far bigger city than Columbus OH. Thanks to truckers and the many real and part-time hilljacks/rednecks (and also legitimate farmers) driving diesel pick-ups around here, there is no shortage of stations that sell diesel. So like I said above, this is going to be very interesting to watch. It has sparked (pun) a near 100 page thread on TDIForums in just two days. It seems that by a 2-1 margin over there, the TDIForums regulars are more concerned about avoiding mandatory software re-programs than they are about obtaining some form of redress/compensation from VWoA.

[sailor]

This makes me really happy I sold my TDI earlier this year (the seats did not agree with my back). I am sure mileage and resale will both take a hit.

[deano]

I am sure mileage and resale will both take a hit.

I brought up the Toyota rust recall earlier ... the more I think about it, from the consumer standpoint, it is similar. People bought Tacos because they're dependable. Toyota made good when Tacos weren't. People bought TDIs because they were fuel efficient and clean. If one or both of those is gone, they'll have to make it right. And as a Sportwagen owner, I say that in an X-Files "I want to believe" kind of way.

[sk_tle]

It doesn't make sense in the U.S. with low fuel costs and tax. In Europe where fuel costs are much higher, and taxes at the pump make diesel cheaper than gas, it does make economic sense.

It has nothing to do with awesome and just a consequence of gov taxes.

This. Low end torque means diesel was the norm for truck, agricultural and industrial vehicules. Some governements (in France in particular) decided to make it easier for the economy by keeping tax on diesel much lower than regular gas which drove people to buy diesel vehicules instead.

[sk_tle]

Well, from my perspective only, the appeal of diesel is not just mileage or fuel tank range, but also the technology that goes into a passenger car diesel engine which, for me, means low end torque and engine longevity.

The myth about diesel longevity was raised when they were very simple. Now that emission regulations are stricter and stricter every few years, diesel engines are much more plagued by reliability issues. Especially the EGR (exhaust gas regulation) systems whose valve gates need to be routinely changed. The engines themselves can last, but the maintenance costs are higher than they used to be.

[deboat]

First I will say a big "SORRY" to you guys. I have know about this type of automotive industry fraud for many years. But us guys/gals in the tech side will always blame the marketing guys/gals for this misleading selling strategy. And they in return will blame there boss or someone else.
As stated by sk_tle,(he seems to have alot knowledge about this topic) the noise emission tests are too a load of BS. That flap in the exhaust is there to reduse noise at a testing level. Open the throttle and most noise and exhaust emissions go out the door. But put some spin on that and it is there for performance gains. Also recycling the gasses either back into the combustion chamber or back into the exhaust is crap. There are better ways to do it but there is no marketing and or cost cut gain by doing so. Therefore less profitable sales. Yes it is all about the selling you more crap that you do not need.

The reason of most ECU updates can be for something simple like changing the parameters of a failure code. Most of the software programers are not mechanics, so there always a long learning curve for the ECU. Not always the reason but the testing of new fuel maps is time consuming and some aftermarket tuner will never have the resources to get as good as the manufacturer. It is possible to damage parts to the car if you add to much fuel or take away to much fuel. I could go on and on about this topic....
If you want to be environmentally friendly, don't buy a new car. Stop buying new crap. A car that is 30 years old has a much smaller carbon foot print than any car that is 5 years old. (Don't to forget to add the emissions of producing the car. etc...) Just ride your bike!
Oh wait. Please buy new cars and motorbikes so that I will keep my job.

[mjbabcock]

Bummer you knew this and didn't go the whistle blower route, doesn't the blower get half of what the government collects? That's like $9 billion.

[MarkC]

If you want to be environmentally friendly, don't buy a new car. Stop buying new crap. A car that is 30 years old has a much smaller carbon foot print than any car that is 5 years old.

Yep - I drove the same small truck (Toyota 22RE 4x4) for 20 years (1992 - 2012) and loved talking about being environmentally conscious with buddies who were / are driving a new hybrid every 5 years claiming to be greens.

Tnx for the ECU comments.

Guys with knowledge: (snip)

On Edit - Let me make a new thread on the electric question. This one should remain for VW bashing and to make diesel owners feel bad about themselves (kidding)

-Mark

[vertical_doug]

Bummer you knew this and didn't go the whistle blower route, doesn't the blower get half of what the government collects? That's like $9 billion.

I think it is more likely Washington would find a reason to charge him as a co-conspirator and thrown his ass in jail. This seems to be the more likely result of recent whistle blower suits.

[SteveP]

The disappointment I had had my diesel jetta was the maintenance costs.
Timing belt at 100k?
Whaaa?

Was an expensive job too...
Had it put in and gave the car to my kid who drove 4,000 miles a year. She loved it but it had maintenence
Costs always. Not economical to operate always at all.

Got a toyota. Vastly better car.

[sine]

edit

Got a toyota. Vastly better car.

Sure, if you hate driving.

[ides1056]

I don't mind if heads roll, but I recall a financial crisis a few years back that cost way more, and those responsible made out like bandits.

[ides1056]

I think it is more likely Washington would find a reason to charge him as a co-conspirator and thrown his ass in jail. This seems to be the more likely result of recent whistle blower suits.

I'll give this an ATMO because it's too FFFFFing true

[lumpy]

I was impressed by VW's evil genius until I discovered that the heavy duty diesel guys got caught doing the same thing 15 years ago and it led to the largest environmental civil penalties up to that time. One would expect that someone at VW knew this history.

And one would expect that the EPA would have implemented a protocol or program to catch it, but apparently not.

Diesel Engines | ENRD | Department of Justice

[djg714]

edit



Sure, if you hate driving.

Yeah, nobody likes driving more than you.