What on earth is going on with racist US cops???

[j44ke]

It will be interesting to see if the NRA comes out in defense of Mr. Castile if indeed it is shown that he had a concealed carry permit in good standing.

[colker]

It will be interesting to see if the NRA comes out in defense of Mr. Castile if indeed it is shown that he had a concealed carry permit in good standing.

They should. It's the best political opportunity they ever had.. If they fail, they deserve to go away like a fart in the wind.

[summilux]

I had big arguments with a college friend about race as a social construct. He kept offering up the % of American blacks in the NBA as some sort of support for a biological/genetic definition of race...

Your friend had a point. The genetics of race is a scientific interest of mine. I am of mixed ancestry (~50% Chinese and the rest split between Japanese, Pacific Islander and Black Sea) and I teach a 4th year university class entitled Human Genome. One of my lectures is flippantly entitled "Why you are not a chimpanzee" and covers what we have learned from genome sequencing with respect to our place among the primates and he meaning of "race". As humans, our DNA is about 95% identical to that to other apes. When it comes to race, there are definite genetic differences between what we call races (eg Chinese vs Icelandic) and races for the most part represent a shared genetic heritage that goes back tens of thousands of years. Based on DNA sequence alone, you could fairly confidently assign someone to a race. However, as cultural beings we all transcend our DNA. Sadly repressive cultures can create and reinforce social/economic stereotypes based on these DNA differences.

[colker]

Your friend had a point. The genetics of race is a scientific interest of mine. I am of mixed ancestry (~50% Chinese and the rest split between Japanese, Pacific Islander and Black Sea) and I teach a 4th year university class entitled Human Genome. One of my lectures is flippantly entitled "Why you are not a chimpanzee" and covers what we have learned from genome sequencing with respect to our place among the primates and he meaning of "race". As humans, our DNA is about 95% identical to that to other apes. When it comes to race, there are definite genetic differences between what we call races (eg Chinese vs Icelandic) and races for the most part represent a shared genetic heritage that goes back tens of thousands of years. Based on DNA sequence alone, you could fairly confidently assign someone to a race. However, as cultural beings we all transcend our DNA. Sadly repressive cultures can create and reinforce social/economic stereotypes based on these DNA differences.

It's a system of thinking close to Astrology.. Those born under Taurus have a strong vocation for hard work, taking wel care of their homes and love the good material life.. We should ignore astrology and race.

[davids]

Your friend had a point. The genetics of race is a scientific interest of mine. I am of mixed ancestry (~50% Chinese and the rest split between Japanese, Pacific Islander and Black Sea) and I teach a 4th year university class entitled Human Genome. One of my lectures is flippantly entitled "Why you are not a chimpanzee" and covers what we have learned from genome sequencing with respect to our place among the primates and he meaning of "race". As humans, our DNA is about 95% identical to that to other apes. When it comes to race, there are definite genetic differences between what we call races (eg Chinese vs Icelandic) and races for the most part represent a shared genetic heritage that goes back tens of thousands of years. Based on DNA sequence alone, you could fairly confidently assign someone to a race. However, as cultural beings we all transcend our DNA. Sadly repressive cultures can create and reinforce social/economic stereotypes based on these DNA differences.

Can you call it "gene pool" rather than "race"? That term is way too culturally loaded to be scientifically useful.

[colker]

I couldn't be more different from my own brother. We are what we chose to be. Period.

[jclay]

Newt Gingrich is gaining wisdom. I'm glad of that but I sure wish he'd gained a lot more, a lot sooner. According to Slate he stated that white Americans don't understand being black in America.

"It took me a long time, and a number of people talking to me through the years to get a sense of this. If you are a normal, white American, the truth is you don’t understand being black in America and you instinctively under-estimate the level of discrimination and the level of additional risk."

[summilux]

Can you call it "gene pool" rather than "race"? That term is way too culturally loaded to be scientifically useful.

Gene pool is fine. You are right that "race" is really loaded as a term. We tend to think of gas chambers and guys measuring skull size and penis length. I don't think I could teach my lectures if I wasn't a member of a minority.

It is possible to find some levity in genetics. For example, the texture of your ear wax. Europeans have wet, yellowish ear wax. Asians have drier, greyer wax. Try this on your friends. Yup, genetics is fun.

[summilux]

I couldn't be more different from my own brother. We are what we chose to be. Period.

Yup. I ask that my student watch the movie GATTACA to reinforce precisely this point. OTOH, the lactose digestion gene being what it is, my students of Chinese ancestry aren't about to have a litre of chocolate milk as a recovery beverage.

[guido]

Not sure I understand your statement, but it is a BIG FUCKING PROBLEM in our society when ANYONE feels the need to carry a gun 24/7. This has nothing to do with race to me. No one of any race/sex should need to have a gun with them in America ATMO and people holding to the argument that the right to carry a gun is making them safer is only adding to the problem ATMO

What ever our personal opinions on gun ownership, Philando did have a legally licensed firearm.

The problem I'm pointing out is that having a legal weapon seams to have been sufficient cause for a police officer to to shoot him multiple times while he was following the officers instructions. He followed all of the rules by identifying that he had a weapon with a Concealed Carry Permit to the officer. And he was killed for it. This has nothing to do with the right to bear arms making him safer or not. It is about a black man being killed in a circumstance that his only offense was the color of his skin. The same circumstance that many white persons (reportedly some on our forum) find themselves on normal basis and live to tell the tale.

[SeanEasley]

What ever our personal opinions on gun ownership, Philando did have a legally licensed firearm.

The problem I'm pointing out is that having a legal weapon seams to have been sufficient cause for a police officer to to shoot him multiple times while he was following the officers instructions. He followed all of the rules by identifying that he had a weapon with a Concealed Carry Permit to the officer. And he was killed for it. This has nothing to do with the right to bear arms making him safer or not. It is about a black man being killed in a circumstance that his only offense was the color of his skin. The same circumstance that many white persons (reportedly some on our forum) find themselves on normal basis and live to tell the tale.

I'm not sure how you can neatly conclude all this based on the limited internet/media data that has been presented thus far. Unless you've seen some stuff that the rest of us haven't.

I'm just saying reserve judgement until there is more information available.

PS, if two cops are wrestling me to the ground, and I have a gun on my person, I'm basically laying motionless until they are done with what they are doing, whether they're right, wrong, racist or whatever. I call it self-preservation.

[colker]

There is something wrong w/ the police that goes beyond racism or gun carrying.. The number of people dying in the hands of cops while disarmed, being transported to jails, inside jails, running way and shot in back w/ arms raised... is alarming.
The victims could be black, yellow, jewish, gay or alzheimer patients.. it does not matter. It's the cops that kill too easily.

A man inside a car w/ a woman and child should not be shot while showing empty hands. That's just bad law enforcement.

It's not guns or racism.. it's bad police work.

[colker]

Regarding slavery and racism..
Remember Schindler's list? Ok.. Nazis made jews into slaves. Nazis deemed jews inferior so they would be slaves. Schindler had a factory and he was given slaves. Was Schindler a nazi? Yes. Was he a racist? No... he loved the jews like equals, as human beings and risked his life for their lives. Schindler was a slave owner making his wealth through slave labour and yet he was no racist.
Could Schindler have an option other than slave ownership? Yes. He could run away. He could give up his wealth and position.. but he didn't.
Slavery was about wealth and money. Racism is about mistrust, looking at others as inherently bad, it's about segregation.

[Saab2000]

What pisses me off about these seemingly endless tragedies is that they're so avoidable and preventable if people would cool their heads for 5 seconds. It's not cowardice to back down from a fight, especially a fight you're going to lose. This applies to all parties in these cases.

As for the Dallas shootings, it needs to be investigated as a hate crime. The alleged shooter specifically targeted people by their race.

[becomingblue]

Police are trained to act certain ways in certain situations. I have seen videos, not the recent ones, of citizens dying in confrontations with police. I thought as well that the police acted inappropriately. I discussed them with a few cop friends, their responses were that the officers followed procedures. And in most cases, after investigations, the cops were cleared of charges, because they followed procedures.

Those procedures are generally unknown to the public and if you don't know them, you may think the cops are acting out of line. If anything, local government needs to come out and let the public know, somehow, that the police are going to act in certain ways based on YOUR actions. Because that is how we have trained, and expect, them to act.

There are certainly bad apples that the union protects at all cost. Show me a union that doesn't, that's their role. The police unions are no different that any other union.

[theflashunc]

I'm not sure how you can neatly conclude all this based on the limited internet/media data that has been presented thus far. Unless you've seen some stuff that the rest of us haven't.

I'm just saying reserve judgement until there is more information available.

PS, if two cops are wrestling me to the ground, and I have a gun on my person, I'm basically laying motionless until they are done with what they are doing, whether they're right, wrong, racist or whatever. I call it self-preservation.

You're referring to Alton Sterling. Philando Castile was shot in his car as part of a traffic stop for a busted tail light. Philando is the victim who legally had a concealed carry permit, identified to the officer that he had it as such, and the gun was in the same compartment as his registration that the cop was asking for. The cop then shoots him thinking he's reaching for his gun.

Alton was shot at point blank range while two officers were on top of him, already subdued.

[Jonathan]

We all have a common African ancestor and are made of elements created billions of years ago in ways we are just beginning to understand. The energy that fuels every single one of us has its ultimate origin in the sun. Yes, race is a social construct.

[Saab2000]

There are certainly bad apples that the union protects at all cost. Show me a union that doesn't, that's their role. The police unions are no different that any other union.

My union doesn't do that. Or at least they didn't at my previous company, and our union there was part of a larger, national union of which I'm grateful to still be a member in good standing. They would represent a bad apple to make sure administrative procedures were being followed but I could name a list of my former co-workers who wound up out of a job due to inappropriate on-the-job behavior or inadequate airmanship.

Unions have their faults, to be sure, but this isn't really a union issue. It is a much larger societal issue.

I don't have the answers. But I can ask questions sometimes.

[roseyscot]

My union doesn't do that. Or at least they didn't at my previous company, and our union there was part of a larger, national union of which I'm grateful to still be a member in good standing. They would represent a bad apple to make sure administrative procedures were being followed but I could name a list of my former co-workers who wound up out of a job due to inappropriate on-the-job behavior or inadequate airmanship.

Unions have their faults, to be sure, but this isn't really a union issue. It is a much larger societal issue.

I don't have the answers. But I can ask questions sometimes.

Pilots union is not even in the same universe as police unions. Does your union hold sway in political outcomes? Does your union represent publicly paid figures in every town in the country?

[Saab2000]

Pilots union is not even in the same universe as police unions. Does your union hold sway in political outcomes? Does your union represent publicly paid figures in every town in the country?

Good point. It's more of a partnership with our employers in a specific, for-profit industry. There are huge differences. That said, unions are often pigeonholed into the same blanket label of 'union' and at that point I take some offense. They do involve themselves heavily in politics, but largely politics of our industry and no further.

You do raise a good point. The floor is no longer mine!