New builder setup questions

[botspanx]

Thanks to everyone for the information, and advice! It sounds like an oxy-propane setup with an oxygen concentrator, instead of bottles, will suit my needs the best. I'll start doing some digging on suitable concetrators that might be available second hand in this area. In the meantime, I'll gather the torch parts recommended here, and in Doug's post about acetylene vs. propane.

[devlin]

I've started out using the oxy propane and Ive been able to do everything Ive needed to with it. One data point is try and get a really nice light weight mixer/torch. I have a mixer that has nice adjustment etc. But is a tad heavy and without having used anything else I know that will be an upgrade in time. Also check if your town gas is suitable so you dont even need a BBQ bottle. Just get a tap plumbed into you workspace.

[botspanx]

I've started out using the oxy propane and Ive been able to do everything Ive needed to with it. One data point is try and get a really nice light weight mixer/torch. I have a mixer that has nice adjustment etc. But is a tad heavy and without having used anything else I know that will be an upgrade in time. Also check if your town gas is suitable so you dont even need a BBQ bottle. Just get a tap plumbed into you workspace.

Good to know. To my knowledge, there are no gas lines near enough to me to make tapping into them feasible, but that would certainly be a convenient feature if I find myself looking for a new space in the future. Thanks!

[waterlaz]

I'm a newbie and would probably spend 5 oxygen bottles like these to fillet braze a frame.

Where I live it is actually cheaper to buy a used oxygen cylinder with a new regulator than a used oxygen concentrator. About 5 times cheaper.

[botspanx]

I'm a newbie and would probably spend 5 oxygen bottles like these to fillet braze a frame.

Where I live it is actually cheaper to buy a used oxygen cylinder with a new regulator than a used oxygen concentrator. About 5 times cheaper.

I think oxygen bottles are quite expensive to fill here, so if I can really expect to use so much, it would definitely be worth buying a concentrator. Thanks!

[waterlaz]

I think oxygen bottles are quite expensive to fill here, so if I can really expect to use so much, it would definitely be worth buying a concentrator. Thanks!

I meant that the bottles on your picture are very small. You should get a 5-10 litres cylinder if you want to do brazing.

[e-RICHIE]

My cylinder rentals total about $180 per year for two. And, as a full time brazer I might replace them several times a year. If you're new, inexperienced, and want to teach yourself what goes where, you have to pay the price (the cost of admission, cross the barrier of entry, whatever) and do a metric shitload of practicing on material you buy JUST for the repeat and more repeat tasks you're trying to learn from looking at pics on the internet or reading threads here. If you don't make the investment, you won't come out on the other end with anything except charred metal and frustration. You simply cannot low-budget these things. If the OP is still reading I'm suggesting he spends the coin on some real tanks (big ones, not the toys shown here), some real regulators, and a real (not a hobby) set of ox-acetylene torches and tips. And then buy a load of practice steel to burn up in lieu of taking a more traditional path to learning "how to do this". PS According to my opinion it's just plain wrong to select a fuel based on the costs involved. If you're going to braze up steel and hope to make a frame(s), get an ox-acetylene setup and learn yourself how not to fear heat and big flames.

[Eric Estlund]

Absolutely. To do this right there is a minimum cost of entry. If that is above your current threshold, save up. Let the want to do it right overcome the want to do it quickly.

[botspanx]

My cylinder rentals total about $180 per year for two. And, as a full time brazer I might replace them several times a year. If you're new, inexperienced, and want to teach yourself what goes where, you have to pay the price (the cost of admission, cross the barrier of entry, whatever) and do a metric shitload of practicing on material you buy JUST for the repeat and more repeat tasks you're trying to learn from looking at pics on the internet or reading threads here. If you don't make the investment, you won't come out on the other end with anything except charred metal and frustration. You simply cannot low-budget these things. If the OP is still reading I'm suggesting he spends the coin on some real tanks (big ones, not the toys shown here), some real regulators, and a real (not a hobby) set of ox-acetylene torches and tips. And then buy a load of practice steel to burn up in lieu of taking a more traditional path to learning "how to do this". PS According to my opinion it's just plain wrong to select a fuel based on the costs involved. If you're going to braze up steel and hope to make a frame(s), get an ox-acetylene setup and learn yourself how not to fear heat and big flames.

I've said in the original post, and a few times since, that I'm not opposed to saving up, or paying for better equipment, or material. The picture was just something I saw at a local store, which (if this thread has done anything at all) has been removed from the table as an option. Being new to brazing gasses, I did not know I would offend so many people by asking what that kit was capable of. I'm currently considering an oxy(concentrator)-propane setup primarily for safety, legal, size, and convenience reasons. I'm not trying to cut any corners, or deny the obviously superior wisdom of the builders this forum (not sarcastic). I'm just trying to determine what is realistic.

I really do appreciate the help, and advice from everyone that chimed in, but clearly coming here first was a mistake. I see now that I should have just chatted up some DIY-ers before troubling professionals. No hard feelings, people.

[steve garro]

IMG_6697.jpg

Being new to brazing gasses

Get This.

- Garro.

[Eric Estlund]

If you are buying compressed fuel gas, why the hesitation for compressed O2? If you can transport and store one safely, you can transport and store both safely.

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks.
I haven't read the entire thread.
PS Please ensure your names are embedded in every post you make here on FF.

I've said in the original post, and a few times since, that I'm not opposed to saving up, or paying for better equipment, or material. The picture was just something I saw at a local store, which (if this thread has done anything at all) has been removed from the table as an option. Being new to brazing gasses, I did not know I would offend so many people by asking what that kit was capable of. I'm currently considering an oxy(concentrator)-propane setup primarily for safety, legal, size, and convenience reasons. I'm not trying to cut any corners, or deny the obviously superior wisdom of the builders this forum (not sarcastic). I'm just trying to determine what is realistic.

I really do appreciate the help, and advice from everyone that chimed in, but clearly coming here first was a mistake. I see now that I should have just chatted up some DIY-ers before troubling professionals. No hard feelings, people.

[Gattonero]

I've said in the original post, and a few times since, that I'm not opposed to saving up, or paying for better equipment, or material. The picture was just something I saw at a local store, which (if this thread has done anything at all) has been removed from the table as an option. Being new to brazing gasses, I did not know I would offend so many people by asking what that kit was capable of. I'm currently considering an oxy(concentrator)-propane setup primarily for safety, legal, size, and convenience reasons. I'm not trying to cut any corners, or deny the obviously superior wisdom of the builders this forum (not sarcastic). I'm just trying to determine what is realistic.

I really do appreciate the help, and advice from everyone that chimed in, but clearly coming here first was a mistake. I see now that I should have just chatted up some DIY-ers before troubling professionals. No hard feelings, people.

I always found that one has to "flirt" in some way with the Big Boys. I'm not a Guru, but I'm saying this 'cause I too tend to be a bit harsh with new mechanics when they come for a trial. Eventually, the good ones stick with their purpose and get to break trough the wall

[echelon_john]

There's being a tough, exacting audience. And then there's being a douchebag. Two different things. This thread has both. We can be better.

[Doug Fattic]

Just to be clear acetylene is not a superior gas for brazing frames than propane. They both work fine as far as just the brazing itself goes. Propane has the advantage in that it is much cheaper and transports easier with fewer government and insurance regulations. If anyone gets the impression that its cheaper cost means it is inferior for brazing bicycle frames than they are mistaken. The only time I give acetylene the edge (and it is only a slight edge) is when I am fillet brazing. It hotter, sharper cone gives me a bit more control. Having said that we fillet braze frames in Ukraine with propane just fine.

My acetylene tanks are the big 80 size (the biggest I don’t have to rent) and cost about $200 to buy at my local welding supply store. They can be rented also for about $9 a month. That might be a cost effective option for some people. A refill is $36. I own 2 of them. My $50 BBQ tank (which costs $20 to refill) will last longer than both of my large acetylene tanks. In other words that is more brazing time than 2 big acetylene tanks will provide.

Once one has paid for an oxygen concentrator than it has an unlimited oxygen supply and is be safer. There is never a need to bother with transport or pay for refills. It doesn’t require a regulator either. It can be used with acetylene as well. I agree that there are no shortcuts to brazing setup costs but some good options are cheaper than others.

[jclay]

Thanks to everyone for the information, and advice! It sounds like an oxy-propane setup with an oxygen concentrator, instead of bottles, will suit my needs the best. I'll start doing some digging on suitable concetrators that might be available second hand in this area. In the meantime, I'll gather the torch parts recommended here, and in Doug's post about acetylene vs. propane.

I suggest you get competent introductory brazing instruction and discuss the equipment options, gas options and associated regulations in your part of the world before spending a nickel. You'll be much better equipped to navigate the situation.

Your questions were completely reasonable for this forum; some of the responses you received were not.

I'm not as enthusiastic about super light hoses and heavily customized equipment (oxygen generators) as some, though they are qood for some circumstances; yours might be one but I suggest getting some experience before committing. I also think that some of the packaged torch, regulator and hose outfits offer very suitable equipment and are an excellent value.

Framebuilding is not cheap and it can be a pretty consuming, obsessive and frustrating hobby. I'm glad I wasn't infected with it when I was in engineering school.

Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask questions here.

[jclay]

Guys, let's get this back on track- thanks to the posters keeping this moving.

The short answer is that most small canister kits are going to hold you back. Getting an oxy/ acetylene or oxy/ propane set up is essential. Underpowered tourches will hold you back (at best), teach you bad habits and generally be more expensive to operate and more likely to ruin good materials.

Most of the respondents won't be able to help with specifics in your area. Rather than try to look it up, head down to your local welding store and work with them on the local regulations and procedures. You'll need to work with them eventually anyway to supply the gasses, might as well start that relationship early. Before you buy anything you might ask them to direct you to local resources for torch education (some sort of tech educational program). In addition to learning the basics of use, you want to be well versed the in the safe operation, use and storage of your equipment.

Yes, this, right here, what Eric said. In my haste I skimmed right past this nugget earlier.

As to propane vs acetylene don't make the mistake of thinking either is a silver bullet that will improve your skills or general results; only practice will do that. After some instruction I suggest picking whichever makes logistics easiest, set up for that and never look back. I chased that phantom (trying both gasses in hopes of magical results) and it was a waste of money and time. One day I'll get around to selling my LP tips. Oh, you don't need to spend $ on an entire tip set. A larger one and a smaller one will suffice. A #5 and #2 Meco Midget works for me.

Check Alex Wetmore's site for info on tube sizes that allow slipping a sleeve of larger diameter over a length of smaller for brazing practice. It's a very inexpensive way to make fake practice lugs.

Did I mention that this can get expensive?

[Mike Mcdermid]

*Text deleted by Eric. Nope- we're not going to have the conversation swing this way.*

[Eric Estlund]

And that ends this one. If you've got a personal beef Mike, take it off forum.