Where do you draw the line?

[devlin]

My thoughts, for what they are worth, as I'm one of 'those' just starting out.

When I look at where I want to take my framebuilding journey it is quite the opposite of the 'art' bike. I really don't like the ornate lugs or the weird designs for the sake of being different. Having said that, as Eric said, I don't dislike that frame as much as I thought I would, except that bracket. Ugh.

I have been wanting to build since I was a 17 year old when I bought a Geoff Scott original way back. I was distracted over the years and mainly due to lack of maturity never really figured out how to go about it.

The last ten years I have studied as much as I can via the internet, this forum, speaking at length with Dazza and recently with Keith, and reaching out at some of the other builders further afield. I can tell you, and this discussion has been held elsewhere on here, THE biggest hurdle here in Australia is having someone to take on an apprentice. I also wonder how many builders in general have apprentices. Why is this important? Well a two week course really is an introductory thing. Sure they show you and you end up with something decent but it's never going to be the same as spending 1 year, 2 years, 5 years being guided by a 'master' framebuilder. There are ways around this and it takes time.

I agree with Rich in that the average skillset is probably being lessened, with absolutely no disrepect for anyone building, I think everyone has seen enough of my praise to understand where I sit, BUT when was the last time Rich, sorry to single you out and any of the other long time builders actually had an apprentice on board just like the old days when most of you started out. I understand paying another persons wage is a burden on the business but the number of times I see the 'old timers' lamenting the new comers and their excitement to get going is frustrating. There are a good number of us new comers that woudl love a chance to be an apprentice but that ain't going to happen.

Now before you get on the keyboard and start hosing me down I agree with the start of this thread and the idea that the new guys, including me, probably get ahead of ourselves a little bit. It's understandable. The custom frame building niche is having a bit of a rennaisence of sorts and it's an exciting time. Personally I get to see stuff from guys like Dave Anderson, Firefly, Forty Four, etc. that really floats my boat and I want to be a part of it. I want to get going but not to be able to just post some fancy bit of coffee shop art on FB and get oohs and aahs. I REALLY want this to be my gig.

The biggest problem I have now is because I have posted my progess photos to me FB (I know, slight contradiction to my last comment, mainly becasue I'm proud of my work but also because I'm enjoying educating my friends about what I'm doing) I have a line up of mates who want to place an order. I have had to tell them I'm not even close to being ready and that it will be some time yet. I'm under no illusion as to what I need to do to get better and to get to a point of being ready to take that first order. I guess I'm lucky that I have a technical background, am pretty resourceful and good with my hands, and a little older than most guys starting up these days. I have the patience, most of the time, and more imprtantly I have the desire to make the best bike I can for it's intended riding purpose, not the fanciest.

Sorry for the ramble. Just thought I'd throw some comments out there for another point of view. I have immense respect for the builders who come here to advise and help the new comers and the amount of knowledge I've gleaned from these forums pages is huge. Thank you.

[e-RICHIE]

I agree with Rich in that the average skillset is probably being lessened, with absolutely no disrepect for anyone building, I think everyone has seen enough of my praise to understand where I sit, BUT when was the last time Rich, sorry to single you out and any of the other long time builders actually had an apprentice on board just like the old days when most of you started out. I understand paying another persons wage is a burden on the business but the number of times I see the 'old timers' lamenting the new comers and their excitement to get going is frustrating. There are a good number of us new comers that woudl love a chance to be an apprentice but that ain't going to happen.

I didn't have an apprenticeship, and when I look at the food chain I'm part of, most framebuilders don't get their start working at/for another framebuilder's shop. At best, if you've developed some skills and habits working in industry, working for a framebuilder (assuming his business model allows for it) you can hone some procedures and get a look at how units are assembled when quotas are less of a concern. But learning from a framebuilder? I don't think so.

You wanna learn? Go into industry. Find a place that produces frames, stand there, observe, go through all the stations and become familiar with sequences, materials, and tools. And after a few years when some of it begins to make sense, leave and then try to find a framebuilder who possibly needs seasoned helper.

[devlin]

Ahh. my misunderstanding. I thought when you weet to England it was basically as an apprentice to the builders there. My apologies.

Why couldn't you learn from a frame builder? I honestly don't understand this point of view. You could stand all day for ten years looking over someones shoulder but until you've got the file or torch in hands then you aren't going to gain the skills.

[e-RICHIE]

Ahh. my misunderstanding. I thought when you weet to England it was basically as an apprentice to the builders there. My apologies.

Why couldn't you learn from a frame builder? I honestly don't understand this point of view. You could stand all day for ten years looking over someones shoulder but until you've got the file or torch in hands then you aren't going to gain the skills.

The difference between us is this - I didn't want to be a framebuilder, but you do. I went to London SE with my first year's college tuition money, lived on my own (as an 18 year old) and worked for free at a family business that made batch built frames slowly. They had predetermined models that were tweaked for each order or order for a half-dozen at a time (or more) and had the labor force to make it work. I didn't so much as hold a torch in my hand for at least the first 8 months. It was a job shop, and I was on an adventure. Only years later, and after being left alone (or with Peter at WUSA which was a separate adventure) and making hundred of frames there did I get the inkling that maybe I would stay in this.

A framebuilder works at a slower pace. No two orders or clients are alike. No two days are alike. Moods changes. The market changes. Any time you can get from a framebuilder is a gift, because for every moment you're there asking questions, he's not making money. And, for every frame he "allows" you to work on, you're bringing him closer to being unemployed.

Production shops are different. But what I'm describing here is a framebuilder's shop. He's working alone and independently by choice.

[afwalker]

Well, I'm conflicted here. Really we are at the feet of masters here and throwing sh*t in their faces. Please people get the gist. We are NOT masters. Just wanna-bes and hobbiest trying to copy those who went before us. DO NOT PRETEND TO BE NEAR THEIR EQUALS. Show respect and grovel at their feet for the morsels of knowledge that they choose to throw off their tables of hard work and repetive journeyman work to become the masters that they are. If you want to gain knowledge and insight, don't piss of the bears. Especially when a huge winter storm is threatening some of their homes.
cheers
back to my cave to do more wash on, wash off. After 1000 frames I may know something.
andy
and I think the bike looks like shit. That's stupid you dumb morons who can't tell "art" from maybe a pretty tatoo, if you want attention, kick my ass on a bike ride. Don't wear rings, body art, or some other fad. Posers, what do you have in you? Show me I'm from Missouri.

[devlin]

The difference between us is this - I didn't want to be a framebuilder, but you do. I went to London SE with my first year's college tuition money, lived on my own (as an 18 year old) and worked for free at a family business that made batch built frames slowly. They had predetermined models that were tweaked for each order or order for a half-dozen at a time (or more) and had the labor force to make it work. I didn't so much as hold a torch in my hand for at least the first 8 months. It was a job shop, and I was on an adventure. Only years later, and after being left alone (or with Peter at WUSA which was a separate adventure) and making hundred of frames there did I get the inkling that maybe I would stay in this.

A framebuilder works at a slower pace. No two orders or clients are alike. No two days are alike. Moods changes. The market changes. Any time you can get from a framebuilder is a gift, because for every moment you're there asking questions, he's not making money. And, for every frame he "allows" you to work on, you're bringing him closer to being unemployed.

Production shops are different. But what I'm describing here is a framebuilder's shop. He's working alone and independently by choice.

Ahh.... I understand now. They really are two different journeys. Thanks.

I understand the framebuilders position in regards to having someone by his/her side. It is an extra load on the business initially but could eventually be an asset. It would depend on the framebuilder and how he has his business set up.

I have another question though. How many productions shops are around? In Australia I don't know of any. In the US? Is Moulton still a full production run shop? Any other production frame I know of would seem to be out of Asia.


Andy, is this directed at me? I can assure you and said as much in my post that I have the utmost respect to the frambuilders and their contributions. Grovelling at their feet and .....what is it........ "for the morsels of knowledge that they choose to throw off their tables" like we are some sub servant slave is just sycophantic dribble. I come here because these guys are WILLING participants in the conversation and for the most part are incredibly helpful. There has never been any time where I have thought of my self as their equal of frame building skills. How could you? That would be delusional. If I don't understand something I will put my thoughts forward and ask the question. There is no disrespect by doing that at all and when I have mentored apprentices in my field of expertise I have been more impressed and seen better progress by those that ask me the hard questions than by those that just do as told.

[e-RICHIE]

I have another question though. How many productions shops are around? In Australia I don't know of any. In the US? Is Moulton still a full production run shop? Any other production frame I know of would seem to be out of Asia.

Last one for now since yours is a great question that few ask, and the answer I give is always the same, even before I'm prompted. The complete lack of places (production shops) in the mainstream now should be that warning sign to you or anyone who wants to be in this game. It's not the same game anymore, and it hasn't been that way since the early to mid 1990s atmo. And I won't play devil's advocate and suggest it's a different game. Industry and technology has found ways to make bicycle superbly well and also well-designed. That used to be the private domain of independent framebuilders only. Consider this when you're mapping out that business plan.

[devlin]

^^ Great answer. Thank you.

[Jake Rosenfeld]

and I think the bike looks like shit. That's stupid you dumb morons who can't tell "art" from maybe a pretty tatoo, if you want attention, kick my ass on a bike ride. Don't wear rings, body art, or some other fad. Posers, what do you have in you? Show me I'm from Missouri.

jesus, I remember my first beer....... fucking moron.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Last one for now since yours is a great question that few ask, and the answer I give is always the same, even before I'm prompted. The complete lack of places (production shops) in the mainstream now should be that warning sign to you or anyone who wants to be in this game. It's not the same game anymore, and it hasn't been that way since the early to mid 1990s atmo. And I won't play devil's advocate and suggest it's a different game. Industry and technology has found ways to make bicycle superbly well and also well-designed. That used to be the private domain of independent framebuilders only. Consider this when you're mapping out that business plan.

I had a bit of a ding dong with Reynolds about this, if you wanna make Taiwan margin which is 5% to live the dream then do it but it was a bit far down the line before I discovered BML was going to make 4k on every 50 frames the overhead was 2.5 and it was a non stop viscious circle (I will refer to the mysteriously large sums of money ALL FBs seem to earn �� )why would you not want to make sackloads of cash,lets Be honest once a lot of people have bought the wardrobe run out of friends and family and discovered they need to eat . its almost reached the stage of bands trying to get recognized

[bencooper]

its almost reached the stage of bands trying to get recognized

Aye, good comparison - or like restaurants. They keep starting up, ride a wave of hype for a bit, but pretty soon most of them disappear. I think it's great that lots of people want to try framebuilding as a hobby, but turning that into a career that makes you a living is a very different thing.

[bencooper]

Well, I'm conflicted here. Really we are at the feet of masters here and throwing sh*t in their faces. Please people get the gist. We are NOT masters. Just wanna-bes and hobbiest trying to copy those who went before us. DO NOT PRETEND TO BE NEAR THEIR EQUALS. Show respect and grovel at their feet for the morsels of knowledge that they choose to throw off their tables of hard work and repetive journeyman work to become the masters that they are. ... I'm from Missouri.

I'm not conflicted. There are people who are very skilled at building frames, but let's not kid ourselves, this is just sticking some steel tubes together, it's not rocket science. I learned from a man who started off welding ship hulls together, for him a bit of "bronze welding" was easy compared to that kind of stuff. Any experienced Taiwanese welder can stick frames together better than 95% of framebuilders. If I have a question, I'll ask someone who's had the problem before, if someone asks me a queston I'll answer it. I'm not going to grovel at anyone's feet.

But I'm from Scotland ;-)

[devlin]

Aye, good comparison - or like restaurants. They keep starting up, ride a wave of hype for a bit, but pretty soon most of them disappear. I think it's great that lots of people want to try framebuilding as a hobby, but turning that into a career that makes you a living is a very different thing.

Answering for myself only I am quite aware that I may only ever sell a few frames when I'm at that point. Lets face it, it's a niche product and I live in Australia. There is only so many riders that want a custom steel frame and there are actually quite a few builders in Australia now. Also, the marketing dept. of the big companies have cleverly persuaded (as they do) the punters they need aero carbon and convincing them that a steel bike can be reasonably light and not a noodle is hard work. I mean what would I know compared to all the boffins at Gianontrekialised?

At the end of the day I'm not going to die wondering. I'm going to apply myself and improve the skills and really have a good crack at it. If it doesn't pan out then I'm not going to go and stick my tackle in the vice and light the torch I can just go back to being a mech. designer. I get immense satisfaction from creating stuff and love bike like my body loves oxygen. Perfect fit if you ask me.

[MrkiMedo]

As far as I see it frame building is where many can try and enjoy it, but very few can have living out of it (and hard earned at that).

[e-RICHIE]

Answering for myself only I am quite aware that I may only ever sell a few frames when I'm at that point. Lets face it, it's a niche product and I live in Australia. There is only so many riders that want a custom steel frame and there are actually quite a few builders in Australia now. Also, the marketing dept. of the big companies have cleverly persuaded (as they do) the punters they need aero carbon and convincing them that a steel bike can be reasonably light and not a noodle is hard work. I mean what would I know compared to all the boffins at Gianontrekialised?

At the end of the day I'm not going to die wondering. I'm going to apply myself and improve the skills and really have a good crack at it. If it doesn't pan out then I'm not going to go and stick my tackle in the vice and light the torch I can just go back to being a mech. designer. I get immense satisfaction from creating stuff and love bike like my body loves oxygen. Perfect fit if you ask me.

Great answer and nice way to complete the circle since the OP. Not to be overlooked is that fact that industry and its ways have supplanted the need and demand for what a framebuilder once did. I get that folks see the creative and aesthetic side of things (holes? sheesh!) and say that mass-producers can't and don't do that. But the art side of things , even when well executed, will hardly be enough to make a market. One needs to know how to make bicycles, and about how they're used, and how a rider should sit between wheels, and how components interface with frames, and more, and be able to take the stew of these things and deliver dependable goods and at a profit. Top Ramen isn't a food group atmo. And you're spot on about the knowledge base of a typical framebuilder in contrast to the boffins at Gianontrekialised. Framebuilding used to lead, and these boffins would mine the niche for ideas and take them to the masses. That flip-flopped a couple of decades ago. It's sad, or maybe it isn't, but it's certainly true.

[Amaro Bikes]

Before getting a fancy nouvelle cuisine dish of deconstructed spanish omelette, you need to master the standard spanish omelette recipe.

We shouldn't try to put the cart before the horse

[Michael Gordon]

We shouldn't try to put the cart before the horse

cart-before-the-horse[1].jpg

Agreed! That's not going to work well at all.

[beeatnik]

These are fascinating conversations.

Wonder if the analogy below works (I hope my reading comprehension is still at a high level)

Brill Building = Production Shops
Phil Spector = Notable Framebuilder
Pro Tools Jockey = New Framebuilder

We no longer have Brill Building songwriters. We no longer need Brill Building songwriters. As such, producers (craftsmen) with the skills set(s) of a Phil Spector are a dying (dead) breed. The New Wave? Well, you don't need to know how to play an instrument. Can Kanye sit down at a piano and perform a basic tune? Either way, some of the New (New?) Wave can build a pretty good pop song. At the end of the day, the question Warner Bros (The Question of Commerce) must ask is: can anyone be the next Lennon and McCartney? And if ANYONE (no natural barriers to entry) can be the next Lennon and McCartney, the question the songwriter must ask: how easy is it to win the Lottery?

Al Lagunas

[Jonny Cycles]

I like the mucic analogy. The general public is pretty easy to impress, juts tune into any top 40 radio station and take a listen. Similarlly open up some new builders flickr/instagram/facebook feed and look a the positve comments they get. The brazing and finish work may be quesitonable, but put up something remotly interesting and/or different and watch the praise roll in.

While there is a place for mediocre pop music with a few good hooks (as much as I consider myself a music snob I love a little Britt Britt now and then), is there a place for it in framebuilding? If you find yourself wanting to commission a frame full of holes you will have a hard time convincing an estabilished reputable builder to make it, but find a new guy and they might say yes.

6125672794_301778c616.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

Re the music and culinary references - bicycles and making them are not part of the arts. The good (as in consumer good) is not a decorative art or one of the traditional or not so traditional craft pursuits. It's a vehicle. It's taken on the open road and trails, and should be dependable. These conversations in which aesthetic elements are called into question are always tied to someone trying to run before he can walk. A bicycle can be beautiful and well-crafted, but it should be that last, not first atmo. I think it's the role of those who made it safely into the trade to show others how they can be part of it. Looking the other way, or ignoring bad design, or choosing words carefully - these will only enable a more watered down product. And since the fishbowl is already small and see-thru, the consumer may view all of us in a similar light. I think it's better to talk these things out and help the folks on the left hand side of the developmental timeline rather than encourage poorly thought out work. It's a bicycle, not verse, Brown Betty, or macramé.