Can anyone - outside of the US - provide a different perspective on DPRK?

[jitahs]

get me out of here

See ya.

[Matthew J]

It isn't because the media is New York based. It is because on the one hand you have a tragedy in an affluent white suburb. On the other hand you have a tragedy in an insular immigrant community."

Yes, yes I know all about affluenza, but do not mistake the proximity of NYC to Newton as not bearing any weight vis-à-vis budgetary constraints.

That, and the racial leitmotif, are what drive the coverage.

We don't seem to be communicating well these days; answers are rarely, "all of this, none of that."

BTW of course I'm right about nyc, been going there for 45 years.

The difference in coverage between the two events had one primary cause - the Korean victims were adults, most of the Newton victims young children. This nation has long been in thrall of its youngest. Whatever one might make about the good feelings failing to translate in available resources provided those children not slaughtered, the fact is a mass killing of kids no matter where, what race (some of the Newton victims were Asian and other non-caucasion races, btw) or how affluent.

[jitahs]

^See all kinds reasons. BTW the victims at Okios (read the link) were from all over the planet; the shooter is Korean. Kids, privileged society, news centers close, racism, yadda yadda.

Back on track, this looks good: Amazon.com: The Aquariums of Pyongyang: Ten Years in the North Korean Gulag eBook: Chol-hwan Kang, Pierre Rigoulot: Kindle Store

[Matthew J]

^See all kinds reasons.

99% the age of the victims. 1% other factors. Grover Cleveland and Stockton school shootings both were heavily covered. Hell, GC even was the subject of a hit song.

BTW the victims at Okios (read the link) were from all over the planet; the shooter is Korean.

Well aware of this, per the many news items I read at the time. In my earlier post I left out 'shooter.'

[lukasz]

See ya.

I mean New York!

[TomW]

that i find koreans to be about the most fucking adaptable people in the world. they can live anywhere- are acutely aware and interested in other cultures. [. . .] and a nostalgia for a "koreanness" that's they know in their gut becomes inevitiably lost.

I live in Korea partly because I like Koreans and as an alcoholic with a tendency to behaving like a child I fit right in... however, the one thing I would absolutely not say is that they are interested in other cultures. One of the fundamentals of Koreanness is that it is different and separate from other races. They, like Japan and China, have an obsession with racial purity and Koreanness.

Their diaspora was largely forced due to circumstances and they have prospered due to an insane work ethic, strong family units and a admirable (but soul crushing on the youth) laser focus on education. However, notice what Koreans do in any other country when they live there; cluster and live in Korea-towns, worship at Korean churches and eat in Korean restaurants.

They are consummately unadventurous when it comes to trying other cultures and cuisines. The first thing my work colleagues ask me when they go abroad is where the best Korean restaurants are. They all pack kimchi. My immediate boss last year complained of a boondogle to Paris as she hated the food and was forced to go out to 3* Michelin restaurants rather than eat kimchi in her hotel room. Samsung actually circulates a mass email to its employees before CES in Las Vegas with the address of every Korean restaurant thre.

Seoul reflects that. An absolute dirth of anything properly international despite being the 5th biggest city in the world and the capital of the 13th richest country in the world (achieved with no natural resources). Not one good European restaurant.

Disclaimer: this is all general and of course anyone can say "well I know..." and I do know the exceptional Korean who does not fit the above mold. However, two years in... and having met a lot and a lot of gyopos... I do not think I am too off the point with this. Of course this unique and slightly isolating culture is partly what makes it so interesting.

[lukasz]

I was gonna edit my above post to say: everything has a multitude of explanations but most things also have one explanation that is stronger than the others. Believe me, I'm a big fan of grey: 3quarksdaily: monday musing: loving michnik (not the best writing on the guy but it'll do, and there's a Korea connection )

I wish eastern Europe could help me make sense of North Korea but I think the similarities are largely aesthetic, and I don't think it'll go down the way those states did.

[billrick]

Quick tip for anyone planning for an "escape" event, whether a tornado or a 9/11 type attack: your local cell phone system will be overwhelmed within minutes of the event, but text messages will still frequently go through. It might be helpful to drill your family to text "I'm ok at XYZ heading to ABC" as soon as something happens, not dialing your cell number over and over. And even if text delivery is delayed, it should get delivered.

Stay safe friends!

[vertical_doug]

I was gonna edit my above post to say: everything has a multitude of explanations but most things also have one explanation that is stronger than the others. Believe me, I'm a big fan of grey: 3quarksdaily: monday musing: loving michnik (not the best writing on the guy but it'll do, and there's a Korea connection )

I wish eastern Europe could help me make sense of North Korea but I think the similarities are largely aesthetic, and I don't think it'll go down the way those states did.

Tito - Stalin

If people want to know how much fun gulags are, you can read: The Kolyma Tales by Shalamov
You'll never complain about the cold again.

[christian]

Quick tip for anyone planning for an "escape" event, whether a tornado or a 9/11 type attack: your local cell phone system will be overwhelmed within minutes of the event, but text messages will still frequently go through. Stay safe friends!

Wait, you don't have a GETS card? No, but seriously, this is good advice.

[jerk]

tom- i hear you. i guess what i mean by "interested" is that they are not oblivious to other cultures and are aware of them and no how to preserve their own within the context of other cultures. you're right- i can't think of a time where i've had a korean friend who'd eat anything other than korean food...and they don't want to adopt foreign customs usually at all..but i've always felt pretty socially welcomed over there...and they "get it"....they have to, having continually been under threat of having their culture and race wiped out by their larger neighbors. i guess- it's all part of the survival thing and the fucking insane work ethic.

re: the north. the same family shit applies. the north could nuke seoul tomorrow and the south would go in, mop up. welcome their prodigal brothers back to the family and never, ever speak of it or somehow blame it on the japanese.

I live in Korea partly because I like Koreans and as an alcoholic with a tendency to behaving like a child I fit right in... however, the one thing I would absolutely not say is that they are interested in other cultures. One of the fundamentals of Koreanness is that it is different and separate from other races. They, like Japan and China, have an obsession with racial purity and Koreanness.

Their diaspora was largely forced due to circumstances and they have prospered due to an insane work ethic, strong family units and a admirable (but soul crushing on the youth) laser focus on education. However, notice what Koreans do in any other country when they live there; cluster and live in Korea-towns, worship at Korean churches and eat in Korean restaurants.

They are consummately unadventurous when it comes to trying other cultures and cuisines. The first thing my work colleagues ask me when they go abroad is where the best Korean restaurants are. They all pack kimchi. My immediate boss last year complained of a boondogle to Paris as she hated the food and was forced to go out to 3* Michelin restaurants rather than eat kimchi in her hotel room. Samsung actually circulates a mass email to its employees before CES in Las Vegas with the address of every Korean restaurant thre.

Seoul reflects that. An absolute dirth of anything properly international despite being the 5th biggest city in the world and the capital of the 13th richest country in the world (achieved with no natural resources). Not one good European restaurant.

Disclaimer: this is all general and of course anyone can say "well I know..." and I do know the exceptional Korean who does not fit the above mold. However, two years in... and having met a lot and a lot of gyopos... I do not think I am too off the point with this. Of course this unique and slightly isolating culture is partly what makes it so interesting.

[lukasz]

I'm just gonna show up at your place, christian. If you see a skinny guy in lycra, don't shoot!

[jitahs]

I was gonna edit my above post to say: everything has a multitude of explanations but most things also have one explanation that is stronger than the others. Believe me, I'm a big fan of grey: 3quarksdaily: monday musing: loving michnik (not the best writing on the guy but it'll do, and there's a Korea connection )

I wish eastern Europe could help me make sense of North Korea but I think the similarities are largely aesthetic, and I don't think it'll go down the way those states did.

I agree with your first paragraph but when you consider everyone has cognitive bias (Cognitive bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) internet disagreement on points really is a matter of making a compelling argument, which is often ignored in favor of reinforcing one's own bias. I'm not necessarily applying this to you, but as a broader phenomenon I see it playing out daily here.

Ok, as such I shall address jerk's comment below.

[jitahs]

tom- i hear you. i guess what i mean by "interested" is that they are not oblivious to other cultures and are aware of them and no how to preserve their own within the context of other cultures. you're right- i can't think of a time where i've had a korean friend who'd eat anything other than korean food...and they don't want to adopt foreign customs usually at all..but i've always felt pretty socially welcomed over there...and they "get it"....they have to, having continually been under threat of having their culture and race wiped out by their larger neighbors.

If this is your logic as applied to what you see locally that's fine. The last part about being wiped out by larger neighbors - that applies to the larger neighbors in spades too. I have an intimate grounding on this subject, believe me.

But mostly you need new glasses and to come out to California for a few months. Careful, your sweeping generalizations just knocked your growler over.

[jerk]

my only experience with koreans has been in korea, among the sizeable korean expat community in brussels and the sizeable korean expat community in allston. my gf also lived in seoul for 10 years.

i haven't had any long term interactions with koreans on the west coast.

If this is your logic as applied to what you see locally that's fine. The last part about being wiped out by larger neighbors - that applies to the larger neighbors in spades too. I have an intimate grounding on this subject, believe me.

But mostly you need new glasses and to come out to California for a few months. Careful, your sweeping generalizations just knocked your growler over.

[davids]

I'm finding this dialog between jerk & jitahs fascinating - After reading the NYT piece and your dialog I realize just how little I know about Korean culture.

Thanks. As you were.

[jitahs]

my only experience with koreans has been in korea, among the sizeable korean expat community in brussels and the sizeable korean expat community in allston. my gf also lived in seoul for 10 years.

i haven't had any long term interactions with koreans on the west coast.

Remember the Rodney King incident and the subsequent L.A. riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots)? Some (actually a lot) of African American outrage was fueled by Korean shop owners' "lack of respect" towards the people they were serving, that insular "Korean-ness" Tom was speaking of. In other words they made for an easy target. Those owners were largely old-school newer immigrants. To your point about Korean American integration: during the 80s/early 90s I recall a very distinct gravitation of young KAs to Black culture, hip hop, earthiness, what have you. Going out on a small limb here I'd say they were attracted to their physical strength and innate power <--left myself open there; someone take a swing.

The University of California system now, and has for at least a couple of decades, had an Asian "problem". Why? Because enrollment at UCSD is a full 50%, UCLA and UC Berkeley are in the low 40s. Percentages of Asians in these schools would be much higher but for a sort of glass ceiling quota; in the Ivy League admissions policies reflect a much stronger bias towards alumni, etc.

These percentages reflect many generations of Asians, particularly Chinese and Japanese, integrating into American/Californian society (After all the Chinese supplied the manual labor on this end of the Transcontinental Railroad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_T...ental_Railroad). Like all immigrant populations they'd been ghettoized but through time have so thoroughly intermarried many are choosing to be not classified as Asian for admissions purposes (this has been happening for at least two decades in my experience, much more so recently).

Tying it in, as for the Caspian Kang's introduction to the concepts of sadness/inevitable-ness there is a Russian term for their brand of it, something akin to gravitas. You can see how the the presence of gulags and communist regimes can introduce or amplify this existential characteristic.

[jerk]

an argument can be made that every immigrant group in american history becomes/became "white" by the third generation regardless of skin color.

the elephant in the room of course, is african americans and native americans (and to an extent the hispanic population in places in the south west that predate the united states) whom have remained a distinct "other"...mostly do to the fact that neither of those groups chose to be here.

Remember the Rodney King incident and the subsequent L.A. riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots)? Some (actually a lot) of African American outrage was fueled by Korean shop owners' "lack of respect" towards the people they were serving, that insular "Korean-ness" Tom was speaking of. In other words they made for an easy target. Those owners were largely old-school newer immigrants. To your point about Korean American integration: during the 80s/early 90s I recall a very distinct gravitation of young KAs to Black culture, hip hop, earthiness, what have you. Going out on a small limb here I'd say they were attracted to their physical strength and innate power <--left myself open there; someone take a swing.

The University of California system now, and has for at least a couple of decades, had an Asian "problem". Why? Because enrollment at UCSD is a full 50%, UCLA and UC Berkeley are in the low 40s. Percentages of Asians in these schools would be much higher but for a sort of glass ceiling quota; in the Ivy League admissions policies reflect a much stronger bias towards alumni, etc.

These percentages reflect many generations of Asians, particularly Chinese and Japanese, integrating into American/Californian society (After all the Chinese supplied the manual labor on this end of the Transcontinental Railroad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_T...ental_Railroad). Like all immigrant populations they'd been ghettoized but through time have so thoroughly intermarried many are choosing to be not classified as Asian for admissions purposes (this has been happening for at least two decades in my experience, much more so recently).

Tying it in, as for the Caspian Kang's introduction to the concepts of sadness/inevitable-ness there is a Russian term for their brand of it, something akin to gravitas. You can see how the the presence of gulags and communist regimes can introduce or amplify this existential characteristic.

[jitahs]

the elephant in the room of course, is african americans and native americans (and to an extent the hispanic population in places in the south west that predate the united states) whom have remained a distinct "other"...mostly do to the fact that neither of those groups chose to be here.

Well to that I'd say look at what the extant dominant culture gives the "others" in terms what is acceptable behavior (see above student quota example). Let's not forget this, in conjunction with geography, will limit future opportunities in that region.

In this respect the West is far more liberal -- the California Dream, Land of Opportunity, etc.

The "West", incidentally, is rapidly being bought up by Mainland Chinese (where the real estate market is on shaky ground), Russians and Indians. All cash single family home buyers everywhere.

So in reality the Far East is the New West.

[edoz]

the elephant in the room of course, is african americans and native americans (and to an extent the hispanic population in places in the south west that predate the united states) whom have remained a distinct "other"...mostly do to the fact that neither of those groups chose to be here.

I think in the case of Native Americans, it's more like they didn't choose for US to be here;)