Fillet Pro

[hmbatrail]

So I have been using Freddy's Fillet Pro for the last few frames and I really like it. It takes a little getting used to but what I like most is how easy it is to lay down the tinning pass. It is also a snap to clean up and finish. Has anyone else been working with it and what are your thoughts?

I attached a few photos of the process. I cleaned off the flux after the tinning pass just to take a few snaps.

[Craig Ryan]

Thanks Tim, that is beautiful.

[Freddy]

OK?
I have a question, what about distortion making the outer nice and full?
do you use heat sinks or is the process still below distortion temps?
Freddy

[hmbatrail]

Freddy,
I do not use heat sinks. I try to move fast and get the hell out of there.

For the tinning pass I use a bigger flame and pull the silver in and form a nice fillet on the inside. For the second pass I turn the flame down pretty damn small because too big of a flame and this shit will run away from you. I find the smaller flame allows me to build up a section, let it "freeze", and then I move on. I also find it is absolutely crucial that you are working from the top. If you try and lay the fillet uphill or downhill you'll regret it. So I am constantly rotating the frame to keep the work area facing up.

Unlike nickel silver or bronze where I make strokes across the joint with the rod to build up the fillet, with the Fillet Pro I start at the center of the joint and then feed silver into the fillet until it grows to the size I need. Am I making sense on that?

[suhacycles]

Those joints are very purty!

Tim, Freddy - Given the tensile strength of Fillet Pro is it safe to assume one can get away with doing a smaller fillet compared to brass, especially if one is using a light tube, say with 0.8 or 0.7mm butts?

Also, given the lower heat can you still use a lug-appropriate HT (31.7 dia, 1.0 wall) or is it recommended to use something beefier (33 dia, 1.5 wall)?

-Hansen

[hmbatrail]

I am quite certain that you can get away with smaller fillets than what I am laying down but I just like the look of a bigger fillet. It is personal preference based exclusively on aesthetics. One thing is for certain, it isn't making the joint weaker.

As far as tube wall thickness, I can't answer and don't have an opinion. All of the fillet work I have been doing has been for mountain bikes and I am running 37mm HT (and one 36mm) stock on those.

[Freddy]

Hey Doc?
Fillet Pro is stronger becuase it adheares stronger, copper is the limiting factor in all brazing rods.
So far many of the builds were in fact done to look like no filler was there?
Three to one seems to be enough for the tube to give way before the filler.
We are still doing models over here to set baselines with.

Short answer is a fillet made this way with the silver bearing bronze can be very small and light compared
to other rods and was intended for very thin tubes.

The Fillet Builder for cosmetics was not explained in the past years and was not re-made.
But stay tuned it will be

[Freddy]

Also Hansen, I am working on large project orders and consultations for industry almost all my waking hours.
I don't want you guys to think I am giving out flip answers or avoiding writing papers and posting them on my website.
My days have been around 20 hrs long just keeping my portions done.
I am trying now to put back up a web to explain in detail all of the methods.
I now have some dedicated help and a very detailed help site is coming soon.

Thanks for questions, keep them coming.

Your success is the most important issue.
Always has been.

[Freddy]

Not a happy holiday season in regards to silver bearing products, the cost is soaring, Hank is now at $35 for the 56%
Our longtime friendship with weldfabulous just moved to $34.18 so many people are starting with much more cost to build in the preferred manner of lugs and silver.
I have worked very hard to make sure that all options remained in the supply and this really comes in at a bad time.
Please don't think we are raising prices for profit, our "Fillet Pro" and "System 48" sell out as fast as we can get it from the mills and is also subject to the silver market.
Quality is always first, I hope this settles down before silver options are just priced out.
The ease and dependable use of low temp alloys should be the first option for great builds, I am so sorry that the cost has become so intimidating,

[Freddy]

Just a reminder, I am not selling any products and all products come from Wade, but I will answer questions if you call me. 520-364-1334

Wade is at Cycle Design USA

[zank]

This past week, I've brazed up three lugged bikes with System 48 and one fillet frame with Fillet Pro. Wade's been keeping a steady stream of material headed this way. It's the only stuff I use.

[steve garro]

How much are you raising your prices to accomidate the huge difference in price of a silver filler v. a copper based one? Are you sucking it up or passing it on? That's some expensive shiny dust under the bench! Help me here - Frames built with brass last forever, longer then the owner if built by a knowledgable builder. An honest question! Of course I can see the benefits if joining Stainless, but most of us are not building full stainless frames............Just steel, for which LFB works great/lasts forever - let's see if we can keep the responses from going ratshit-batshit crazy, huh? - Garro.

[EricKeller]

even with stainless, Dave Anderson says he's using nickel silver, which is similar in price to lfb

[EricKeller]

I have to say switching to lfb on lugs from silver is not a slam dunk. I wouldn't just assume you can do the switch without some woodshedding, so that means an investment of time as well as $ for practice lugs/bb shell.

[pruckelshaus]

I think in any business, you can only absorb so much in the way of materials cost increases; you have fixed costs, i.e. the amount you are paying in rent, shop materials, paint, how much you pay yourself for your time, etc. I'm not a pro, have never been paid for a frame and I think it will be a while before that happens (my wife gets a new frame next, and a friend of mine wants one after that, so these will be cost of materials jobs), but before becoming a teacher, I was a web developer who did a lot of freelance work (and I still do freelance work from time to time). Every time I had a job come along that had me consider lowering my rate, I remembered something a friend told me -- your rate is your rate. Those jobs that I did take a lower rate on, I just didn't have the passion for that I did for the jobs where I didn't need to worry about paying myself and paying my overhead. Now, with that said, when you price your product, no matter what it is, you need to take those regular increases into consideration -- build in a bit of a cost buffer so that if materials costs go up 10% or even 20%, you're still covering your costs. I suppose an alternative would be to have a "base" cost, and then have a materials surcharge if those materials costs go beyond what you have allocated in the cost of a frame, sort of like how UPS adds a fuel surcharge.

Pete

[steve garro]

build in a bit of a cost buffer so that if materials costs go up 10% or even 20%, you're still covering your costs. Pete

I think it's ALLOT more then that. And it's not a cost that is forced on you, but one you chose for a personal reason. I know how much material it takes to braze a frame as I have built going on well over 250 fillet brazed frames. I use seven brass rods for a frame with just enough short ends left to tack the next one. That equates to allot of silver alloy. I'd just like to know from someone who has done one what the filler cost was - that's all. I'm trying to promote sustainable buisness practices, one of which is tracking your building costs. Maybe I want to build a KVA fillet bike & I want to know the cost before hand so I can spit the client an accurate quote. - Garro.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Steve- As I posted that response I forgot to add the need to weigh the LFB total (7 rods) to get it's cost per frame. A fraction of the cost per pound. Or you could just count how many rods make a pound (or 5 depending on your purchase volume).

[Andrew R Stewart]

Steve- I would think that you could come up with a pretty good idea of the added cost to fillet braze a frame with a silver filler using some measurements and math. How many inches of LFB rod do you use? You mention 7 rods. Measure the total length. Then transfer that length into silver rod (or coil) inches total and calculate that cost. If I had a new, unused, coil of 56 or 50N I'd offer to measure how long they are for you (perhaps a supplier might offer this, or for Fillet pro, for the forum?). Finding a dollars per inch cost would then be easy. Of course that assumes that the amount of silveryou'd use is around the same as LFB. But it is a simple start to an approximate answer.

[steve garro]

Steve- I would think that you could come up with a pretty good idea of the added cost to fillet braze a frame with a silver filler using some measurements and math. How many inches of LFB rod do you use? You mention 7 rods. Measure the total length. Then transfer that length into silver rod (or coil) inches total and calculate that cost. If I had a new, unused, coil of 56 or 50N I'd offer to measure how long they are for you (perhaps a supplier might offer this, or for Fillet pro, for the forum?). Finding a dollars per inch cost would then be easy. Of course that assumes that the amount of silveryou'd use is around the same as LFB. But it is a simple start to an approximate answer.

Or I figure I could ask here where at least three builders have posted them on FNL & all three of the people involved with the company post just about every day. I want to hear from someone with experience, I don't want to add my percieved notions. Heck - I don't keep that much silver in stock & it's sold by weight, not length. I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops - is this sacred knowledge or something? When someone orders it for a full fillet brazed frame how much material do you tell them they will need? If I call HJ & ask him how much of his filler material I will need he will give a concrete awnser. - Garro.

[Freddy]

Seven of our lfb rods equals about three troy ozs of "Fillet Pro" so it is not earth shattering compared to the cost of tubes and other components.
If you ask any of the builders like Tim over at Shamrock I think you will find about three of four ozs is fine using the "Fillet Pro"
I know Wade and I used about three on the last mtb we built here, with nice medium fillets.
And of course any lfb can be employed with good results doing old school, it is touchy on thin tube offerings but I know I could use either 99% of the time.

I guess I could pull the license on my offerings and stop allowing sale of them?

For the record all of offerings fly off the shelves and the includes all over this globe, so someone must like the results?

You know my telephone works so if you want to wheel and deal and hear the rest of the story pick yours up.

We can go over the mill costs and measure things and compare things in realtime.