Riding tip #1

[Bike Rider]

The very first thing I learned from your test is that my saddle tilt was wrong. It's a Brooks Pro team and I had pretty much eye balled it level. As soon as I took my hands off the bar my ass started to slide forward.

Tilting the saddle up a tad was lesson #1.

Lesson #2 was: get a decent multi tool. When I pulled mine out of it's case, the damn thing fell apart (loose screw).

Fore/aft will have to wait for the next ride.

[1centaur]

Yes, that sliding forward bit tends to happen when I try the DK experiment. Bunches the chamois. Tilting the nose up helps, but when you go back to riding in the drops, not so much. I suspect torso length is also an element of this balance. Still, this methods helps get me back so I can feel how that feels, even if I do end up 11cm from fingertip to bar with my elbow point on the saddle tip (I have extremely average proportions).

[doofus]

tilting your saddle is not the solution

sliding it back is

do lots of planks, boat poses, pikes, and work on your flexibility.

(the saddle tilt test that I would use helping people get set up -- it assumes you're fore-aft is set and your height isn't screwed up: take your hands off the bars, sit up...you slide forward, saddle nose comes up...then get down in the drops...if you have pressure, saddle nose down just a bit...its about finding the right tilt so that you can sit up or get aero and not be using your core to hold your ass in place)

[mschol17]

This is the method I used when I started riding a couple years ago. Recently I've moved my bars down and out, and saddle up and forward because I'm getting stronger. I have no idea where the ideal position is, but I'm going to see TT in a couple weeks and I'm sure he'll straighten me out.

[WadePatton]

I always run from the KOPS ;D

Is this you?!


sorry, yall get back to positioning now.

[Dekonick]

OK - so lets say you find out you could go back a bit - but your rails are jammed as far as they can go...

What seatposts do yall suggest?

I use FSA as they allow a bit more back position than alot of others, but the thompson lets you get even farther back, albeit with questionable aesthetics....

[WadePatton]

I'm slammed back on a Thompson. I thought there was an FSA with more offset.

Next you adjust the STA. Easiest way to do that is to remove the saddle and slip a new frame under it. ;) ;)

[Dekonick]

Yeah - and a divorce to go with the new frame...

[WadePatton]

Hey Dave, I'm just in from the exercise in conscious riding and position experiment.

And the DK test confirms or coincides or is a Kelly Bundy coinkydink with what the KOPS method has been telling me. Every time I lifted my hands I automatically pedaled harder to keep from falling forward. It was actually cool how I couldn't make myself not put more force onto the pedals to maintain my position. I was clearly falling forward.

Conscious riding. I can do it in 5-minute intervals before something distracts me, except on climbs. ADD-certified. ;D Today I repeated a section of dogless road several times.

And I just had a brainflash <<<WARNING>>> that I'd like to share. So if I use this method and find the place where my body is neutral with my hands lifted, wouldn't it be convenient to use the "plumb and spindle" method to find the same position on other rides-as it would take crank length into account by design.

So back to getting aft. I'll now peruse my saddle collection to see if I have something with longer rails. I certainly want to find my balance before I hack up another tubeset--and then I want the STA to be such that I can ride a Brooks in the middle of the rails. And then why wouldn't I design it so that a straight post would work for that?

[mschol17]

So back to getting aft. I'll now peruse my saddle collection to see if I have something with longer rails. I certainly want to find my balance before I hack up another tubeset--and then I want the STA to be such that I can ride a Brooks in the middle of the rails. And then why wouldn't I design it so that a straight post would work for that?

I've heard that modern derailleurs don't work properly for STA less than 71 degrees or so... but those more knowledgeable than I can tell you whether this is true.

[WadePatton]

I've heard that modern derailleurs don't work properly for STA less than 71 degrees or so... but those more knowledgeable than I can tell you whether this is true.

Hadn't thought of that. Don't think I need to go past 70/71. And while I do prefer no deraileurs, I'll probably keep one or two bikes around with 'em. To that end, I would think that a braze-on mount could be tweaked to compensate.

[DCT]

any of u knuckleheads tried this tip yet?

[Catulle]

I prefer female riders with wholesome buttocks riding in front of me. If there is a slight pendular movement of such parts, so much the better, atmo.

You can always tell a good rider coming at you because they only seem to move their legs, while their upper body is stationary. Of course you need to have the strength to keep your body stable while you move your legs.

[SteveP]

i cant asshat you yet... but i will remember.
25% of what you say makes sense.
i think after a good position is set the rest should flow thoughtlessly.
but i might be wrong.
i was wrong one other time.
i havent ridden a fix in 20+ years.
maybe next year...
i might drag back my old fixed out of crackpot mos basement. its a little hilly here for me and it.

pooch will asshat me for this, but...

1) think laterally instead of vertically. when the crank arm comes in line with the seat tube, use the rectus femorus (the muscle in the middle of your thigh) to kick over the top of the stroke. that kick forward will take the pedals to 9 and 3. then you do the scrape the mud off the ball of your foot thing...pull back through the bottom of the stroke. practice this slowly and on a fixed and you'll have a round stroke.

2) slowing down your pedaling on a fixed. resisting on the upstroke will kill your knees. focus on eccentrically contracting your muscles in the same order they fire in the pedal stroke. so when the crank arm comes in line with the seat tube, gradually, gently contract your muscles so you are slowing the pedals down as they go from 11 o clock down through 7 o clock...practice this at slow speeds to feel the muscle patterns. then practice pedalling as above....its all about tuning your mind in with your legs...

[Shinomaster]

I bet SteveP could write a really pretty love letter, or even poetry if he tried.

[WadePatton]

I bet SteveP could write a really pretty love letter, or even poetry if he tried.

what rhymes with asshat?

cuz the karma thing really got SP all over that deal. Hmm, Steve can be our DA--Duke of Asshat.

Now think about your ride while you are riding, the sensations and feedback, and nothing of SteveP the DA at VF.

easy.

[Dave Kirk]

Riding tip #3


I’d like to consider rider position when riding out of the saddle. There are a few key times when we tend to ride out of the saddle, climbing and sprinting. Following the “ride consciously” idea lets think about how hold our bodies and use our strength and weight when we ride out of the saddle.

First let’s think about why we get out of the saddle. In most cases it’s to generate more power. By standing, we take the weight that would normally be sitting dead on the saddle and transfer it to the pedals. We are in effect standing on the forward pedal instead of pushing on it with our leg while sitting. It should be obvious that by doing this we can put much more weight and power into the pedal. It of course comes at an expense. This extra work we are doing takes more effort and raises out heart and breathing rates so our out of the saddle efforts can’t go on forever and this effort needs to be dosed out properly.

The main thing I want to talk about is fore/aft hip placement when standing and proper hip placement for climbing and sprinting.



Climbing – When we are climbing a steep section of road we often need to generate more power to get us up the hill so we stand to help put more weight on the pedal. How we stand can make or break the deal. If we stand up tall and place our hips directly above our feet we are placing our weight over the forward pedal during its downstroke. We are in effect standing with all our weight over the forward pedal. This is a very good way to use our weight to propel us up the hill. The most common mistake is to place our hips too far forward and end up with too much weight on our hands. When you place your hips too far forward you start a negative feedback loop – with your hips forward of the pedal the more you push on the pedal the more weight you shift forward onto your hands and the less weight you are putting on the pedals. Since the weight on your hands does noting to make you go forward it’s a waste of precious energy. You are in the end working against yourself and shifting the burden from the legs to the arms and getting no benefit. You’ve all seen folks do this. They are crunched over the bars, hips forward and elbows bent and their arm muscles showing the strain. You even see folks doing this with their hands in the drops to get even more weight on their hands. Think Thomas Voekler.

Why do we do this? It’s simple really. We stand up because it’s steep and hard to pedal. When we are standing our legs are doing a huge amount of work so to lessen the pain we move our hips forward and shift our weight to our hands. Our legs feel less pain but we make less power and go slower. It feels easier but we are going slower.

The proper hip position while standing climbing is to have the hips directly over the feet so you are standing with all your weight on the pedals. One way to tell of you are going too far forward is to monitor how much weight you have on your hands. If your hands are heavy on the bars and your wrists and forearms are straining it’s a good bet you are too far forward. You can test this by riding up a grade out of the saddle and then seeing how light your hands are on the bars. You should be able to have your hands just barely holding onto the hoods, fingers relaxed and forearms loose. Look closely at photos of the best pure climbers and they often have most of their fingers just dangling and they are holding onto the hoods with just their thumb and first finger. It’s as if you could take your hands off the bars and not much would change. This will result in that “dancing on the pedals” thing we see the best climbers do. It’s light and rhythmic and very efficient.



Sprinting – the hip position while sprinting is similar to climbing but with a twist. Sprinting has two basic phases. The start of the sprint where we need to accelerate as quickly as we can and then the top end, high speed finish of the sprint where rate of acceleration is lower but we need to maintain a higher speed.

During the transition from rolling along to sprinting we need to make huge amounts of power so we stand. Just like climbing we want our hips over the pedals to get as much power and weight onto them as possible. So we stand with our arms relatively straight to keep our hips back where they need to be. We make our billion watts for a short period and accelerate the bike in a big way to the point where we are now going fast. To maintain this high speed and add just a bit more we now need to spin the pedals as fast as possible. To do this we need to lower our aerodynamic drag and put our bodies in the best position to spin high RPMs. So we now need to bend our elbows and shift our weight forward. This lowers our frontal area making us more aerodynamic and transfers some weight from the feet to our hands making it easier to get a high spin going.

The most common mistakes I see when sprinting are that the two phases of the sprint aren’t dealt with. The rider either starts the sprint in the high speed spin position and can’t get the power down to accelerate or they start the sprint just fine but then don’t transition to the lower position for the high speed finish and end up pushing too much air at too low an RPM.



So riding tip #3 is be conscious of where your hips are and your weight is when standing and be sure you are getting the most out of your body weight.

Time to make the donuts.

Dave

[ergott]

Once again, thank you.

-Eric

[dave1215]

been looking forward to #3 and am not disappointed - thanks, dave.

:adore:

[WadePatton]

Thanks for the new installment DK!

Now to muck it all up I'll throw in a thought/question.

I often climb steep gravel sections that prevent hips forward position. The bars must be unweighted to keep from spinning the tire. Pulling up on the bars helps. Smoothness helps too, but thumper say huh?

My point is that mebbe steep and loose climbing would help chronic hips-too-far-forward peeps find a more rearward position-rather quickly atwo.

I may be out of order, so disregard at will. :hahaha:grasshopper (me)