Who will challenge Trump? Who you like?

[ericpmoss]

More manufacturing of consent

[jclay]

More manufacturing of consent

Jim Clyburn's endorsement was a disaster for Bernie and progressives. Prior to that I didn't know anything about him but based on what I've since read, it's not a big surprise; he appears to be a standard corporate sell-out. This is a typical analysis and accurate enough for our purposes: Clyburn has taken more than $1 million in pharma money in a decade, far surpassing peers | Health | postandcourier.com

Had he gone with Bernie one can only wonder what the result would have been. It's difficult to believe that Pete, Amy and the rest didn't get some calls from establishment Democrat power brokers. Elizabeth's refusal to endorse Bernie was either petty or she isn't really as progressive as she claimed to be. She's a big disappointment and now seems politically irrelevant; way to go, 'Liz.

Some say that having Bernie supporters get behind Biden only encourages and sustains the entrenched power structure and therefore refuse to do that. The implication seems to be that it's more important to send a message and attempt to disrupt and change the existing Democratic Party power structure than avoid the guaranteed damage that will result from four more years of Trump. While I understand the logic and fully agree with the analysis of what's generally going on I can't go there yet. I can't know that the strategy won't prove to be the only cure but I won't go there this time around. The collateral damage will be, already is, far too great. Better, I think, to repair as much of the damage that Trump has generated, refit the ship of state as best we can to resist the sort of assaults we're experiencing from Trump & Co., and allow a little more time for the demographics, and frankly the structural problems as well, to favor progressive candidates and policies.

I also think it's worth continuing support of Bernie, the intent being to help maintain his ability to effect change, but I won't disparage Biden and on the day of the general election if it's between him, Trump and not voting for President, I'll vote Biden. Trump is a widely metastasised social cancer that must be stopped before he and his ilk are unstoppable.

[guido]

Another sad reason why overturning Citizens United and restoring the rest of campaign finance reform are so critical if any change is to happen...

[Greg Costello]

To all the Bernie never Biden folk - think like Mick Jagger - you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you just might find you get what you need.

I agree with most of Sanders' positions but sorry he is far, far left of most Americans, I don't see him carrying the critical states. Trusting turnout of the 30 and under crowd is a mistake, as has been already demonstrated in the primaries. And unless Sanders was able to create a Tsunami that flipped the Senate and House, and he kept it for at least 4 years, his policies would go nowhere; it would be more continuation of the stalled out, disfunctional partisan stalemate. He would be left, as Trump has been, to Executive Orders and policies pushed through without Congressional support. Maybe it would be the same with Biden or maybe someone who can try to govern from the center can at least get the ship back on an even keel and restore it to a modest degree of functionality.

And if that's not enough for the never Biden camp, please, please consider what will happen to the Supreme Court in the next few years and what that could mean for a progressive agenda.

[ericpmoss]

Young People and Voting Turnout

[jclay]

Young People and Voting Turnout

Another excellent reason to Vote Blue, No Matter Who! I don't think the dems are erecting many of the roadblocks. With Biden and, fingers crossed, the Senate then perhaps we can turn that situation around? With Trump? I'm thinking not.

[ericpmoss]

Another excellent reason to Vote Blue, No Matter Who! I don't think the dems are erecting many of the roadblocks. With Biden and, fingers crossed, the Senate then perhaps we can turn that situation around? With Trump? I'm thinking not.

We have time to fix this bad choice, so let us push for the fix rather than treating it as fait accompli. The Jake Tapper bit starts at 2:01 into the video.

[jclay]

We have time to fix this bad choice, so let us push for the fix rather than treating it as fait accompli. The Jake Tapper bit starts at 2:01 into the video.

I don't know how. I am not at all convinced that Biden can win. The lack of turnout of younger voters is troubling, as is the Bernie associated FUD of older and generally reasonable peeps, though I'd hope that the younger ones would be certain to vote in the general come hell or high water.

I am gobsmaked that folks are so unaware of the way we're being effed over, say they want change and then studiously refuse to vote for it.

[theflashunc]

We have time to fix this bad choice, so let us push for the fix rather than treating it as fait accompli. The Jake Tapper bit starts at 2:01 into the video.

The logic here makes no sense. The Democrats cannot have a machine efficient enough to fight back a movement that is simultaneously incompetent enough to have no chance in the general election.

And, if the latter is true and the Establishment is that inept, what does that say about Bernie's inability to win over more voters if he can't beat the proverbial clown car?

The unfortunate math is Bernie's gotta win, what, 55-60% of delegates from here on out to have a shot? In states that include the Midwest where he's gotten drubbed by Biden so far, and Florida where voters remember he spent a couple weeks trying to tell everyone about the wonders of Castro's Cuba.

[ericpmoss]

The logic here makes no sense. The Democrats cannot have a machine efficient enough to fight back a movement that is simultaneously incompetent enough to have no chance in the general election.

And, if the latter is true and the Establishment is that inept, what does that say about Bernie's inability to win over more voters if he can't beat the proverbial clown car?

The unfortunate math is Bernie's gotta win, what, 55-60% of delegates from here on out to have a shot? In states that include the Midwest where he's gotten drubbed by Biden so far, and Florida where voters remember he spent a couple weeks trying to tell everyone about the wonders of Castro's Cuba.

The Democratic primary is not a good model for the general -- it's proportional voting (except superdelegates, of course), not like the general. The general should be proportional too, but it isn't. With due respect to the Dem voters in South Carolina, they could be 100% Biden and it wouldn't matter.

The largest bloc in the US is not Dem or Repub but 'they both suck'. So people who would happily vote Bernie in the general don't get to vote in many state primaries. As to the Dems having a machine that can win in a contest they control vs a contest they don't, what's surprising?

BTW, your smear of Bernie wrt Cuba really pisses me off. He said exactly what Obama said about Cuba. Exactly. It's all on video tape. The audience booed because they were insiders and wealthy people who hate progressives -- tickets to that food fight cost $1750 - $3200. Did you care to even spend 1 minute to check that? Until you do, don't pretend to be objective. And don't expect me to spoon-feed the evidence to you. You miss the point every single time anyway.

[vertical_doug]

Rule #1 : Never let a crisis go to waste.

London and UK have suspended local elections so mayors etc get an extra year.

I'm waiting for a trial balloon to go up on twitter. Everything, no matter how outlandish, is first launched as a trial balloon on twitter.

[theflashunc]

The Democratic primary is not a good model for the general -- it's proportional voting (except superdelegates, of course), not like the general. The general should be proportional too, but it isn't. With due respect to the Dem voters in South Carolina, they could be 100% Biden and it wouldn't matter.

The largest bloc in the US is not Dem or Repub but 'they both suck'. So people who would happily vote Bernie in the general don't get to vote in many state primaries. As to the Dems having a machine that can win in a contest they control vs a contest they don't, what's surprising?

BTW, your smear of Bernie wrt Cuba really pisses me off. He said exactly what Obama said about Cuba. Exactly. It's all on video tape. The audience booed because they were insiders and wealthy people who hate progressives -- tickets to that food fight cost $1750 - $3200. Did you care to even spend 1 minute to check that? Until you do, don't pretend to be objective. And don't expect me to spoon-feed the evidence to you. You miss the point every single time anyway.

He said a sensible thing in a shitty way. And instead of adjust said thing in a way not to alienate a core constituency, he did the Bernie and just kept explaining it exactly the same way like the listener, not his original statement, was the problem.

If you're a Democrat who wants to credibly win a general election or primary in Florida, it's not a great idea to tell the large Cuban exile community that the current Cuban dictatorship is doing some great things the way he did. And shock of shocks, there's a way to answer that question that still gets to the core truth Bernie was trying to communicate without coming across like, well, he did.

It's not a smear, it's all in the delivery and his delivery for that constituency was horrid. Which gets to the core of likeability argument. For a not insignificant number of folks, he just comes across as a grumpy old dude. I will agree Biden has had a horrid campaign season until Jim Clyburn threw him a rope to get him out of the well he was in, but there's more than a couple exit polls showing voters prizing a perception of warmth, kindness and compassion coming from their choice. None of those are at the top of the list of Bernie's strengths.

The they both suck party may be a majority, but it doesn't show up on election day. Not participating in the process does not change the process. Sadly there's no "none of the above" on the ballot.

[ericpmoss]

Since I can't explain it to anyone well, just remember I told you that Biden is not what he projects. He is likely to lose, and even if he wins, he has practically guaranteed he will never do what anyone but industry wants. He'll be awful, if he even makes it through one term before he's Reagan-level mentally unfit. He is being protected by the liberal double-standard media, which is why few here have any idea about what he actually did, and how awful it was, and how he's still lying about it, and how much they will suffer from it.

He's not a good person, he's not a good candidate, and he's only ahead because the media is telling lies to protect him, and most people don't have time to dig into the subject.

[davids]

Jjohson and ericpmoss,

You guys have made your points. I hear you.

I disagree with you. I think Bernie Sanders disagrees with you.

I think Sanders hopes that his influence will continue to make Biden a better candidate, and more progressive on the issues. Me too.

If people who hate Trump stay home because their candidate didn't get the nomination, it will be disastrous for the United States and the world. I hope you are prepared to suck up your disappointment and help get Trump out of office.

[bcm119]

He said a sensible thing in a shitty way. And instead of adjust said thing in a way not to alienate a core constituency, he did the Bernie and just kept explaining it exactly the same way like the listener, not his original statement, was the problem.

If you're a Democrat who wants to credibly win a general election or primary in Florida, it's not a great idea to tell the large Cuban exile community that the current Cuban dictatorship is doing some great things the way he did. And shock of shocks, there's a way to answer that question that still gets to the core truth Bernie was trying to communicate without coming across like, well, he did.
........

This is what drives me nuts about Bernie. I like his policy proposals, but he directs his messaging exclusively to the young and apolitical. He needs to communicate his ideas in a variety of ways to be understood by the older Democrats as well as the kids. Instead of just repeating "we need free college for all" louder and more angrily, how about saying we need to extend free K-12 education by 4 years? How about instead of universal healthcare, we extend Medicare to younger folks? Messaging is everything, and there's obvious ways to make ideas sound less scary to the folks in the middle. But he refuses to be nimble in his messaging because he insists on his "socialist" label to set himself apart from the Democrats. He's betting on the young/nonvoting demographic being more significant than the old Democrats, but so far that hasn't panned out in voting data. One would hope he'd see this playing out differently than anticipated and change his messaging accordingly, but nope. It's disappointing to watch, as someone who agrees with his policies.

[ericpmoss]

Bernie Bros were always a myth, and data is showing it.



I'm tired of the professional victimhood of some candidates. Elizabeth Warren in particular angers me, for the fact that I used to support her because she seemed progressive policy-wise, and she *said* she was the toughest fighter for those policies. Seriously, she was great in the debates. But when she couldn't get above 3rd or 4th in most states (how does Buttigieg rate higher than her, anyway?), she refused to endorse Bernie. Now, I'm in no way saying she owes Bernie anything personally, but if she REALLY cared first and foremost about pushing progressive policy, ONLY Bernie is left. There is no gray area here. But she won't, because of mean tweets? That's ridiculous. It's like saying, "someone CLAIMING to support Bernie was mean to me on the internet, so I'm refusing to support the one viable candidate that supports everything I said I was for."

I'm *really* angry at the press who accepts the charges without even clarifying them. It might have been jerks who like Bernie, or Trump trolls, or Russian bots -- I've run into all of those personally. But I don't even know what was supposedly said, only that it was too bad to say -- but trust us it was bad, and Bernie's to blame for not controlling everything everyone might say.

[davids]

She might want to have influence with the eventual nominee? What a sellout.

You really need to accept that everyone who isn't totally with you is not totally against you.

Your vitriol is really disappointing.

[jclay]

^^Yeah, 'Liz has turned out to be a disappointment particularly in terms of her petty behavior and failure to immediately and unreservedly support Bernie. It makes me question how serious she was about progressive policies though I still think she would get more votes than Biden, in the general.

I took a look, again, at Bernie's proposals. I just don't see how anybody can think the general thrust isn't worthwhile and necessary.

[davids]

^^Yeah, 'Liz has turned out to be a disappointment particularly in terms of her petty behavior and failure to immediately and unreservedly support Bernie. It makes me question how serious she was about progressive policies though I still think she would get more votes than Biden, in the general.

I took a look, again, at Bernie's proposals. I just don't see how anybody can think the general thrust isn't worthwhile and necessary.

"Petty behavior"? This isn't high school, it's presidential electoral politics. Warren wants influence, and will have a lot more influence over a whole range of subjects - policy, personnel, and even electoral strategy - by staying neutral and dangling her power in front of both Biden and Sanders. Her goals are different than the other moderate candidates (Buttigieg and Klobuchar in particular) whose goal was to support the more moderate candidate.

This is especially important because (as most of us recognize) Biden is going to be the nominee. You want a progressive policy agenda? You should recognize an ally instead of treating this like another season of The Bachelor.

[jclay]

"Petty behavior"? This isn't high school, it's presidential electoral politics. Warren wants influence, and will have a lot more influence over a whole range of subjects - policy, personnel, and even electoral strategy - by staying neutral and dangling her power in front of both Biden and Sanders. Her goals are different than the other moderate candidates (Buttigieg and Klobuchar in particular) whose goal was to support the more moderate candidate.

This is especially important because (as most of us recognize) Biden is going to be the nominee. You want a progressive policy agenda? You should recognize an ally instead of treating this like another season of The Bachelor.

That suggests to me that she's more interested in influence generally than in advancing a progressive agenda. And yeah, she sounded petty and whining to me and that behavior doesn't generate the impression of a stable, robust leader who isn't easily rattled and whom I'd want in command when the shit hits the fan. Bernie, on the other hand, tried to calm things down and take it off line which is a wise thing to do, for everybody.