Minneapolis Social Injustice and Related

[e-RICHIE]

I’m on my iPad now and the functions are different so pardon the spacing and top posting.

In your comment about public schools, where do the diocese schools fit in? In Bayonne growing up, kids from my street walked to at least ten Catholic elementary schools. Saint Henry’s. Saint Mary’s. Mount Carmel. Assumption. Saint Andrew’s. Holy Family Academy. Marist. The Yeshiva I got bussed to was four towns away.

First I didn't say no private schools. I said that if we are truly dedicated to solving the problems of racism, we should reinvigorate our faith in public schools as a central element in that solution. And the best way to do that is to send your kids to public school and get involved in pressuring state and local government to increase funding for public education and to stop subsidizing private education completely. The goal should be that any kid who walks into a public school has the same resources as any other kid.

Private education is a luxury. Public education is a necessity.

And I am not arguing for a return to some halcyon period. I don't think we've ever equitably funded public education. And there have always been barriers to access. Similarly, as a country, we haven't ever been free of racism.

The question about secondary education is a good one. Originally if you didn't go to college, you went to work in a trade that would provide you with income and quality of life enough that you could afford to live. Or you went to work in a factory with the same results. Those kinds of jobs are not common enough now to provide the same opportunities. So that actually increases the demand for a quality public education, because if you want that same income potential and quality of life, you will need advanced study.

So states like NY have started offering programs that reduce or eliminate the costs of a college education for eligible state citizens at state institutions. In NY, the program is called the Excelsior Program. There are shortcomings to the program, but it is a step in the right direction. And with funding programs like this, getting a program in place, even if there are flaws, is really important. And the cost of most colleges is horrendous. College loan debt is real problem - see Elizabeth Warren and others on that.

But I still think that in order to make these programs valuable, you need students who had full benefit of a high quality primary school education. The funding of secondary education can't be a solution to underfunded public school systems - i.e. we lack the political will to fund public education equitably at the primary level so lets just give the reward of a subsidized secondary education to the truly committed who somehow made it out of the mediocre primary schools that we created. First get public education at the primary level funded equitably school to school, district to district, then work on getting these better educated students into college. They'll be significantly more successful in the long run.

[ides1056]

Were your parents in SF in 1968? I wonder if they could conceive of spending 128K on a home. My aunt bought her house in a nice working class LA neighborhood in 1972 for 15K. Her mortgage was about $128/monthly and it was a burden for her well into the late 80s. In fact, she took in "boarders" for about 10 years.

My parents' parents helped them buy the home. The mortgage was $300/mo, and renting out the top floor enabled my Mom to keep the house when my Dad died.

Yeah, we had it good, and we had it bad too.

[vertical_doug]

We might lose each other here, esp because I don't know how much is saved by not paying the taxes versus what is offered in terms of education. But I am a believer in independent schools. On the other side, if every school was a state or municipally run entity, the government (local, county, whatever...) may have a say in what's taught, by whom, and how.

Here's an example for Harvard. John Paulson donates $400mm to Harvard endowment. Because Harvard is an exempt institution, Paulson can treat it as a charitable donation and gets approximately a $200mm charitable tax deduction. Harvard also gets to enjoy its own tax advantages. I wasn't specifically targeting Yeshivas, but they were fresh on my mind because a couple were busted in holding school in Brooklyn in violation of Cuomo's ban.

I feel the same for any Catholic School, etc. Hey, if Christian Churches want to be involved in politics, they can pay taxes. I feel like taxes is the price you pay to play politics. (Of course, if you are below the poverty line and cannot pay taxes, you still file. You just owe none. )

I believe a state should at a minimum set some standards as to what needs to be taught.

A lot of this ties into taxation. Fundamentally, the US Tax code is not fair in its treatment of the individual versus legal entities (charities, religious organizations, corporations etc)
Citizen United ruled Money = free speech, and as such, I think taxes on these entities needs to be addressed to be more inline with individuals to level the field.

[NYCfixie]

Private schools shouldn't be publicly funded.

No, they, as well as other religious and secular private schools, get millions of dollars in public funds. The process is in some ways straightforward and in other ways through loopholes created for the purpose of funding private education through a "backdoor" by politicians looking for votes and financial support in return.

The whole system of public finance of religious and secular private education is astonishing. Betsy DeVos is just the most shameless pinnacle of the effort to suck public money out of public education into private education and for profit education businesses.

Having worked at independent (i.e. Private, Jewish, Catholic) k-12 schools for more than 15 years (and my wife has worked at them for more than 25), the independent schools where we have worked did/do not receive public funds that would not otherwise be available to the same students if they attended a public school. Often it can only be used for busing, school breakfast and lunch programs if the student would qualify in their home district, funds for special educational requirements based on an IEP (Individualized Education Program) approved by the home public district, and a computer supplied and supported by the home public district. Sometimes, the amount the home public district would normally spend on the student if they attended public school could be used for independent school tuition, assuming the parents have the wherewithal (and the attorneys) to get it from the district where they pay taxes.

Often, there is so much paperwork involved that independent schools choose to cover the cost of these items by way of financial aid grants (not loans).

Even at a school in NYC that might currently charge approximately $60,000 a year starting at full-day kindergarten, that tuition cost does not cover the entire cost of each student's enrollment. The independent school must privately fund-raise millions of dollars each and every year just to cover costs. A significant part of that cost is spent on financial aid for lower income students (check any schools website as most list what percentage of the annual budget is spent on financial aid). The system in k-12 independent schools is not unlike the one used at private higher-ed schools in that those who can pay full tuition do so that others who cannot, do not have too.

A few other issues most people do not know about:
- Public school teachers are protected by unions.
- Public school teachers on average make higher salaries than their independent school colleagues.
- Public school teachers have much better benefits than their independent school colleagues.
- Often, independent schools have class sizes half that of public schools (16 instead of 30-35) which dramatically increases costs
- While in other times, many independent schools were places of systemic racism, most independent schools today actively recruit people (students, faculty, and administrators) of color
- Many independent schools work with head-start programs, such as Prep for Prep, to help public school students catch up and stay current before and once enrolled in an independent school. These programs are often funded via private donations and/or the independent schools themselves
- Although most private schools pay salaries lower than public schools, their largest budget lines items are: salary, benefits, education/program costs, and financial aid.

From the NY Post article Jorn referenced above: "The yeshivas — like other non-public schools — get millions more for pre-K programs, special-ed, food, child-care, security, technology and record-keeping on immunizations, attendance and state exams." Should students who attend independent schools, no matter how much tuition they pay or financial aid they receive or public funds that would otherwise be available to them in a public school setting, not receive the same basic items as public school students?

Please do not confuse independent non-for-profit schools (i.e. private, religious) with non-public operating but publicly funded schools (i.e. charter) or for-profit schools. And know that even most charter schools are trying to provide a better education to public school students using public funds and private donations. These schools are not stealing from the local district but rather trying to use the funds in a more efficient way.

My point is, please do not label all independent schools as "private schools are stealing funds from public schools". Those articles are speaking of very specific cases in which a few independent schools and and/or local public school education boards are trying to game the system. While some schools may try it, there is so much reporting and auditing that eventually the school will get caught.


Simply, the public school system in this country is broken and the unions and politicians have no incentive to fit it. Please put the blame where it belongs.

[e-RICHIE]

Here's an example for Harvard. John Paulson donates $400mm to Harvard endowment. Because Harvard is an exempt institution, Paulson can treat it as a charitable donation and gets approximately a $200mm charitable tax deduction. Harvard also gets to enjoy its own tax advantages. I wasn't specifically targeting Yeshivas, but they were fresh on my mind because a couple were busted in holding school in Brooklyn in violation of Cuomo's ban.

I feel the same for any Catholic School, etc. Hey, if Christian Churches want to be involved in politics, they can pay taxes. I feel like taxes is the price you pay to play politics. (Of course, if you are below the poverty line and cannot pay taxes, you still file. You just owe none. )

I believe a state should at a minimum set some standards as to what needs to be taught.

We all take an exemption on charitable donations. I made at least four yesterday and today.

Why is it okay for me to take a write off and not for others when more zeros at at issue?

[vertical_doug]

We all take an exemption on charitable donations. I made at least four yesterday and today.

Why is it okay for me to take a write off and not for others when more zeros at at issue?

I don't think it is okay for any of us. I think the charitable deduction is one of the great scams of the tax code. I prefer a simplified tax code with less loopholes. In theory, you use your tax deductions to lower your effective rate. So if we had a simplified tax code where you tax rate was equal to your current effective rate, it should have no impact on your charitable giving even if it were not tax deductible.

[e-RICHIE]

I don't think it is okay for any of us. I think the charitable deduction is one of the great scams of the tax code. I prefer a simplified tax code with less loopholes. In theory, you use your tax deductions to lower your effective rate. So if we had a simplified tax code where you tax rate was equal to your current effective rate, it should have no impact on your charitable giving even if it were not tax deductible.

That’s fine. If someone asks me, I’d vote for it. Until then...

[marley]

Back to the regular program

The Fortune 500 company that I work at is really impressing me with their outreach and support ...they are supporting an interactive webcast on Friday and have provided this link to all 100,000+ employees.

Literally stopped me in my tracks....sobering and so eloquent

[marley]

I looked up Peddie School (where I continue to send money regularly). They take no public funds.

My question extends to colleges though. Yale, Bard, Antioch, Reed, Carlton, Hamilton, Bates, RISD, Philadelphia College of the Arts, etc etc etc. These are private schools that don't get public funds, am I right? So, what private schools get public funds? It can't be only Yeshiva.

the Peddie school like Brooks, Phillips Academy — Andover/Exeter Academies and the like are not even in the same league/class as the schools that are being discussed they have no reason to accept funds (Large endowments)- the small religious based schools would not survive without public funds

[GrantM]

We might lose each other here, esp because I don't know how much is saved by not paying the taxes versus what is offered in terms of education. But I am a believer in independent schools

The issue with the tax exempt status has become, like many things, the excess to which the original idea has been pushed.
Harvard has over 40 Billion dollars in their endowment. University of Texas over $30 Billion. Yale over $30 Billion, Stanford,
Princeton, etc etc etc. down the line.

Why are they hording this cash, when gifts to these institutions are being leveraged for tax deductions, and they are not taking
more students who can't afford to attend? Some of these schools initially took Covid bail out cash!

Elite colleges back away from rescue cash amid criticism of endowments - POLITICO

-g

[j44ke]

I’m on my iPad now and the functions are different so pardon the spacing and top posting.

In your comment about public schools, where do the diocese schools fit in? In Bayonne growing up, kids from my street walked to at least ten Catholic elementary schools. Saint Henry’s. Saint Mary’s. Mount Carmel. Assumption. Saint Andrew’s. Holy Family Academy. Marist. The Yeshiva I got bussed to was four towns away.

Diocese schools are private schools. Additionally they are religious schools. They shouldn't receive public funding, i.e. taxpayer money. Doesn't mean they are bad or should be illegal.

As far as independent schools, no school is wholly independent. In order to be an educational institution, they have to meet state education standards that dictate curriculum by grade, rate of achievement, academic competency to graduate, plus various other structural standards like students per class (I think) etc.

[e-RICHIE]

Hey I have no problem with not allowing religious academies access to public funds.

Diocese schools are private schools. Additionally they are religious schools. They shouldn't receive public funding, i.e. taxpayer money. Doesn't mean they are bad or should be illegal.

As far as independent schools, no school is wholly independent. In order to be an educational institution, they have to meet state education standards that dictate curriculum by grade, rate of achievement, academic competency to graduate, plus various other structural standards like students per class (I think) etc.

[e-RICHIE]

The issue with the tax exempt status has become, like many things, the excess to which the original idea has been pushed.
Harvard has over 40 Billion dollars in their endowment. University of Texas over $30 Billion. Yale over $30 Billion, Stanford,
Princeton, etc etc etc. down the line.

Why are they hording this cash, when gifts to these institutions are being leveraged for tax deductions, and they are not taking
more students who can't afford to attend? Some of these schools initially took Covid bail out cash!

Elite colleges back away from rescue cash amid criticism of endowments - POLITICO

-g

Then lobby to have the laws changed.

[e-RICHIE]

the Peddie school like Brooks, Phillips Academy — Andover/Exeter Academies and the like are not even in the same league/class as the schools that are being discussed they have no reason to accept funds (Large endowments)- the small religious based schools would not survive without public funds

You mean, like the Yeshiva that was mentioned at the front end? So, you believe the school should get the one million that someone said was in the news story?

[NYCfixie]

the Peddie school like Brooks, Phillips Academy — Andover/Exeter Academies and the like are not even in the same league/class as the schools that are being discussed they have no reason to accept funds (Large endowments)- the small religious based schools would not survive without public funds

This is simply not true.

I attended a NYC yeshiva, but not of the type mentioned in the articles linked earlier, which when I attended more than 30 years ago had a k-12 enrollment of fewer than 500 students. It now has a k-12 enrollment of about 1100 students. Within the k-12 school world (not just the religious day school world) it is known as one of the best k-12 schools (independent or otherwise) in the country. The school is just over 75 years old so much younger than many of the other NYC independent schools, yet has built an endowment of more than 100 million dollars so they do not need public funding. Please stop using a few examples of bad schools (Jewish yeshivas or otherwise) that operate in the grey areas and try to push the boundaries of what is, and what is not, legal to label and vilify all independent (i.e. private, religious) schools.

A few one-sided articles about a small sample does not explain how the majority of independent schools are funded. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is a great deal of misinformation here and a lack of understanding about the classifications of schools and how they are funded.

One example is Trinity School. It is known as the best k-12 school, public, private, or otherwise and people assume so many negative things about it.
- Did you know that it was funded until the early 1960s by Trinity Church so that it could not do its own fundraising until after it broke away from the church and became a non-sectarian school?
- Did you know that it has one of the smallest endowments of any independent school because it has not had the same time frame to fund-raise as other NYC independent schools?
- While it was started as a school for boys (mostly white), 300 years ago, it has been a co-ed school that actively recruits students of color for a very long time?
- Did you know that it donates classrooms, technology, and support staff to Prep for Prep on Wednesday afternoon/evenings and all day Saturday?
- Did you know that local residents can use its pool in the early mornings and on weekends for minimal cost?
- Did you know that the attached apartment tower it owns, which is rent stabilized, was built for the community as part of the high school expansion on the upper west side when it was not that safe to live and/or go to school on the upper west side in the late 1960s?
- Did you know that the school could have removed that apartment building from the NYC rent stabilization program after so many years but choose to keep it as affordable housing for the community rather than move all apartments to market rate rents which would be a a significant boost to the school's annual operating budget and endowment yet would have put many tenants out on the street due to lack of affordable housing in the area?

It is an easy target for people to criticize when they are not well informed.

Diocese schools are private schools. Additionally they are religious schools. They shouldn't receive public funding, i.e. taxpayer money. Doesn't mean they are bad or should be illegal.

As far as independent schools, no school is wholly independent. In order to be an educational institution, they have to meet state education standards that dictate curriculum by grade, rate of achievement, academic competency to graduate, plus various other structural standards like students per class (I think) etc.

Why shouldn't independent schools receive public funding (for certain basic items used by students)? The students parents pay taxes like all other parents of students who go to public schools. How is that any different from a public school student asking for the same funding to attend a local non-public charter school?

The definition of a "non-public school" is confusing (and why I tried to explain this definitions in my earlier post) because it operates outside of the local public board of ed, but must meet state/local curriculum and testing guidelines, and uses public funding that would otherwise stay in the local public school district. This is also why I do not understand the outcry over charter schools that are classified as non-public schools because they are using public funds and private donations in a more efficient manner than the public school district to offer a better education to the students. How is that not a good idea? A publicly (and partially privately) funded "non-public school" is not the same as a privately funded "independent school" which does not need to follow or meet state/local curriculum and testing guidelines.

Independent schools DO NOT need to meet state requirements, they DO NOT need to follow state curriculum requirements, and the students DO NOT take state mandated tests because they are "Independent". Most, if not all, independent schools curriculum and standards far outpace even the best public schools. Some independent schools follow the IB program (often used in Europe and other countries with much better public education systems than found in the USA). Most independent schools are members of and follow independent school association guidelines. For NYS, it is NYSAIS that accredits k-12 schools, For New England, it is AISNE. Nationally, it is NAIS.

[j44ke]

This is simply not true.

I attended a NYC yeshiva, but not of the type mentioned in the articles linked earlier, which when I attended more than 30 years ago had a k-12 enrollment of fewer than 500 students. It now has a k-12 enrollment of about 1100 students. Within the k-12 school world (not just the religious day school world) it is known as one of the best k-12 schools (independent or otherwise) in the country. The school is just over 75 years old so much younger than many of the other NYC independent schools, yet has built an endowment of more than 100 million dollars so they do not need public funding. Please stop using a few examples of bad schools (Jewish yeshivas or otherwise) that operate in the grey areas and try to push the boundaries of what is, and what is not, legal to label and vilify all independent (i.e. private, religious) schools.

A few one-sided articles about a small sample does not explain how the majority of independent schools are funded. As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is a great deal of misinformation here and a lack of understanding about the classifications of schools and how they are funded.

One example is Trinity School. It is known as the best k-12 school, public, private, or otherwise and people assume so many negative things about it.
- Did you know that it was funded until the early 1960s by Trinity Church so that it could not do its own fundraising until after it broke away from the church and became a non-sectarian school?
- Did you know that it has one of the smallest endowments of any independent school because it has not had the same time frame to fund-raise as other NYC independent schools?
- While it was started as a school for boys (mostly white), 300 years ago, it has been a co-ed school that actively recruits students of color for a very long time?
- Did you know that it donates classrooms, technology, and support staff to Prep for Prep on Wednesday afternoon/evenings and all day Saturday?
- Did you know that local residents can use its pool in the early mornings and on weekends for minimal cost?
- Did you know that the attached apartment tower it owns, which is rent stabilized, was built for the community as part of the high school expansion on the upper west side when it was not that safe to live and/or go to school on the upper west side in the late 1960s?
- Did you know that the school could have removed that apartment building from the NYC rent stabilization program after so many years but choose to keep it as affordable housing for the community rather than move all apartments to market rate rents which would be a a significant boost to the school's annual operating budget and endowment yet would have put many tenants out on the street due to lack of affordable housing in the area?

It is an easy target for people to criticize when they are not well informed.




Why shouldn't they receive public funding (for certain basic items)? The students parents pay taxes like all other parents of students who go to public schools.

That is not correct. Independent schools DO NOT need to meet state requirements, they DO NOT need to follow state curriculum requirements, and the students DO NOT take state mandated tests because they are "Independent". Most, if not all, independent schools curriculum and standards far outpace even the best public schools. Some independent schools follow the IB program (often used in Europe and other countries with much better public education systems than the USA). Most independent schools are members of and follow independent school association guidelines. For NYS, it is NYSAIS that accredits k-12 schools, For New England, it is AISNE. Nationally, it is NAIS.

If you want education paid for by your tax dollars, then send your kids to a public school. If you are unhappy with the quality of the education, work for change. If you don't want to work for change and you choose to go to a private school, then that is your choice. Don't expect the state or locality to pay for it. I for one don't want my taxes to go to any school that is not a fully public school.

When I made my statement about independent schools, I was not referring to a product but a state of being independent, i.e. independent from the outside regulation or proscriptive requirements.

I am not sure if I understand the difference between private schools and these independent schools that you mention. Everything I've checked describes them as different terms for the same thing. If these schools operate with public funds and make their own curriculum and standards without any state regulation, what assurances are there that any standards are being followed? I can't believe that the states or localities just hand over money and say here you go. There has to be some level of state involvement.

Do independent schools have to accept anyone of school age who wants to attend?

If not, then they are using selection criteria that public schools don't have the luxury to use. Therefore it doesn't surprise me that their performance can be rated as better. Public schools accept any school age child. Selectivity would account for better class sizes also.

Are you saying that lower teacher salaries at independent schools is a good thing? Primary school teachers are historically some of the lowest paid professionals with advanced degrees in the country, especially now that a lot of school systems have started requiring masters degrees for some fields. Do teachers at independent schools pay for materials used in the classroom out of their own pocket? That's a very common element in public schools.

Money from taxes should stay in public school. You say that public schools have been ruined by politicians and unions, and I would agree that politicians have had a decidedly non-visionary to antagonistic relationship with public schools. But the problems with public schools are to be found in many school systems that do not have unionized representation for teachers. Any idea how many school systems in the country allow union repesentation for teachers versus how many do not?

The one thing that all public schools have in common is that they are charged with the responsibility of educating the public. They cannot decide not to accept students based on their academic acumen, their literacy, their language skills in English, their race or their religion - the list goes on. When governments further subtract an already insufficient amount for fulfilling the mandate given to public schools and send that money to private schools that do have the ability to tailor their students to meet the benchmarks of education successfully, then that just further hamstrings public schools. Add the history of racial injustice that has been a part of education in America, and you have a system of measurement which has not only never been a level playing field but has many thumbs on the edge of the scales working hard to keep it so.

[Mabouya]

Floyd and Chauvin both worked security at a nightclub at the same time. Coworker David Pinney said the two men had a history.

Grant, this has been known and discussed (although maybe not here) from the very beginning. Other than stories like this that are beginning to appear, I don't believe that the details of the Floyd - Chauvin relationship, whatever they happen to be, are out.

I think Chauvin's defense on this particular aspect will simply be that he didn't recognize Floyd, and unless some video or some witness says that Chauvin yelled something like "You no-good bastard - I told you I'd you back for what you did!" I doubt it will have much bearing on the final outcome. (even though it may be the actual explanation for what appears to be totally irrational behaviour on Chauvin's part)

[GrantM]

Then lobby to have the laws changed.

Sure, agreed. So taxes goes on the "reform to do" list with:

Housing
Schools
Policing
Electoral System
Campaign Finance
Guns
Environment
Jobs
Judges
Media

then we can take the rest of the week off.

-g

[bcm119]

As long as we are going full thread drift...

I am truly torn on the subject of private schools.  Neither of my parents went to college and we were not in the typical private school demographic.  However, my mom got a job as a pre-kindergarten teacher at a highly progressive, tiny, non-profit independent school, and as a result both my brother and I went to that school at 90% reduced tuition from K-12.  

I would not trade that experience for the world: the progressive curriculum taught me critical thinking skills when most kids my age were just memorizing information for the next multiple choice test, and it opened doors to a higher social strata.  That school had no grades, only written narratives of students' progress; we called our teachers by their first names; our class sizes were about 5-10. I keep in touch with many of my teachers to this day. 

My current political views are at odds with my feelings about my own experiences there: I want quality education to work for everyone, and I want it to be publicly funded.  I have no idea how you replicate that experience in the public system.  I think as long as private schools never feed from the same trough of funds as public ed, there is room for both.  That coexistence is certainly driving inequality and perpetuating privilege.  Yet so many of the people who had that unique educational experience have an amazing sense of community, awareness of their privilege, and chose careers that fit that world view.

The school I went to has fallen on hard times and they are closing their doors this year due to lack of funds, and that makes me sad.

[GrantM]

Grant, this has been known and discussed (although maybe not here) from the very beginning. Other than stories like this that are beginning to appear, I don't believe that the details of the Floyd - Chauvin relationship, whatever they happen to be, are out.

Agreed, but in the interview with the Maya Santamaria the day after the incident she downplayed the fact.
There are lots of stories that report the fact they had both worked at the club, but i've seen nothing before today that stated anything
other than they both had worked there. Maybe i just haven't seen more reporting about it.

But i recall reading basically what's in this interview, where she said "i don't suspect that they recognized each other".
(Which is interesting choice of words, because in another interview she said "at first I didn't recognize that it was George".)

Interview with club owner: George Floyd and now-former Officer Derek Chauvin | | wfsb.com

This NPR piece seems typically vague, reporting only that they were co-workers.
George Floyd And Derek Chauvin Were Once Co-Workers, Report Says : NPR
"She said that the two could have crossed paths, though Chauvin mostly worked outside as an off-duty officer,
while Floyd primarily was inside as a bouncer. She wasn't sure if they knew each other"

It's somewhat problematic that given the profile of this story, two weeks later MSM hasn't exactly nailed down the relationship,
or if it was potentially a significant factor in the incident.

-g