It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[colker]

I'm a light social media user. I've never seen a news story on FB or Instagram. People actually get information used in voting decisions from Facebook? Would someone pull up an example of a 'foreign based disinformation' social media news story and link it here?

Instagram is light on politics. It is mostly facebook and whatsup groups. Thing is: a lot of people believe professional journalism is a left wing conspiracy and the truth is happening only in facebook and wup. As bizarre as it may sound they rather believe in unchecked rumour than professional news. They vote according to whatever happens on their social media. Do you know how FB works? Your news feed is determined by your "interests": if you read a Bannon article, it will bring you more in the same fashion. FB could not care less how their algorythm is played by professional manipulators. Yes the left may use the scheme someday but untill 2019 it was the far right who played the game. That´s what´s going on in Brasil. Guess who is the advisor to brazilian far right? Bannon. He dined this year w/our president in the brazilian embassy. Our chancellor speech in the UN was advised by Bannon. There are no conspiracies. It´s power, money and idiotic fringe ideas sold as anti communism. It´s actually anti capitalism.

[Blue Jays]

The best part is we will continue debate on this same thread as President Trump concludes his reelected second term in January 2025.

[mzilliox]

Instagram is light on politics. It is mostly facebook and whatsup groups. Thing is: a lot of people believe professional journalism is a left wing conspiracy and the truth is happening only in facebook and wup. As bizarre as it may sound they rather believe in unchecked rumour than professional news. They vote according to whatever happens on their social media. Do you know how FB works? Your news feed is determined by your "interests": if you read a Bannon article, it will bring you more in the same fashion. FB could not care less how the algorythm is played by professional manipulators. Yes the left may use the scheme someday but untill 2019 it was the far right who played the game. That´s what´s going on in Brasil. Guess who is the advisor to brazilian far right? Bannon. He dined this year w/our president in the brazilian embassy. Our chancellor speech in the UN was advised by Bannon. There are no conspiracies. It´s power, money and idiotic fringe ideas sold as anti communism. It´s actually anti capitalism.

wow, Bannon is behind your populist right wing agenda as well? im not being pedantic, i actually had no idea and am a bit shocked, but im not all that surprised i guess. the implications however are pretty interesting. a guy like Bannon who just wants to tear it all down? advising the leaders of the world, this is terrifying

[colker]

Bolsonaro has a gabinet called Hatred Gabinet. They specialize in spreading fake news and attacking reputations on twitter and facebook. Payed by government. It´s kids w/ no previous job experience. A bunch of youtubers. No previous job expereince other than distilling hatred on thne internet. We just had a bomb attack on the studio from a group of comediants who shot a parody on christmas and Jesus. No victims thankfully. The attack was assumed by a right wing fascist group. Next day a government official says "it looks like something done by the left. By communists".. It does not matter it makes no sense. It´s hatred and hatred is popular now. It does not matter it sounds strikingly similar to the reichstag fire episode in 1933.

[HorsCat]

Nope. Trump is driving the bus.

When America gets played by the Chinese, the Russians, the Turks and the North Koreans, it's more like a jalopy.

[Colinmclelland]

Nope. Trump is driving the bus.

No argument there, it’s just the US used to have a plane...

[Corso]

You guys might as well be screaming at the wind, or at a mountain. Anybody who posts in support of Trump at this point will never, ever change their minds.

As opposed to folks who trash Trump here will ever change theirs?

No - they won't either. So what's the difference? Man, look in the mirror before you dismiss those who simply don't agree with you.

So explain to me why the Democrats have yet to put forth a candidate who could actually beat the "devil" Trump? It should be so easy if he's so bad.

[mzilliox]

As opposed to folks who trash Trump here will ever change theirs?

No - they won't either. So what's the difference? Man, look in the mirror before you dismiss those who simply don't agree with you.

So explain to me why the Democrats have yet to put forth a candidate who could actually beat the "devil" Trump? It should be so easy if he's so bad.

We dont know if the democrats have put forth a candidate to beat Trump, there hasnt been a vote yet has there? nor has there been an election in favor of Trump. do you presume otherwise? but the last person to run against him did get more votes if you recall.


Bash Trump?, we just point out his character, his character bashes itself. changing someone's mind requires presenting an arguement that is contrary to the pervasive thought right? That is why we have laid out facts to the contrary of Trump being a good leader, a decent human, someone worthy of the office. His character flaws is exactly why he faces this impeachment, he acts in his own interests, and thats not desireable for someone who is suposed to act in the ineterest of millions. Would you like to present to us an argument that Trump is actually a good human being, a man of service to the people, a man worthy of leading this country, a man who cinsiders all of us when making choices for the nation? this is the only way to change our minds. I welcome the attempts to paint Trump as a statesman, a servant of the people, a humanitarian worthy of governing. please, present a case, change our minds. show me that Trump is in fact not a liar, that he has not cheated, that he is not the things we accuse him of being.

stop pretending like there is an equivalence. nobody is making any attempts to change our minds about Trump's character, because that attempt would be ridiculous at best, and his character is all he is.

[Dallas Tex]

........ but the last person to run against him did get more votes if you recall. i know i know electoral college and all that, but how fair is that?.......

I always smile when I see folks spin and make this 'point'. Certainly you can understand that strategies would have been very different if it were simply a 'popular' vote ? Did trump even campaign in California? Do you believe that trump would have run the same exact campaign if the election were 'popular' vote? Certainly you can see the intellectually dishonesty in '....but...but...popular vote'.

My best guess is that if the presidential election would have been a 'popular vote' trump would have won that too.

[thollandpe]

I'm gonna side with Glenn here and say that Trump is not an ignoramus. He's a brilliant politician, ipso facto. He has a true talent, even if it's maddening, for steering the media and dividing the electorate. A master of finding divides and exploiting them.

But that ability as a politician is very focused and very limited, he is in way over his head when dealing with anyone with even a sliver of Putin's capabilities. His dominant traits are megalomania and narcissism, and that makes him an easy mark. A mark for manipulation at best, full-on kompromat at worse. Unfortunately I think we're so far down the road with the tax returns that we will never really know -- or maybe accept is more accurate -- whether and to what degree he and his family have been compromised by the Russians, Saudis, et al. I think it could be made plain as day and the arguments will be heated and cleanly divided over whether we can believe what we're looking at. Or tat it even matters.

So to dismiss Trump as an idiot or dotard when he rants about dishwashers and windmills is to underestimate him, and leave yourself vulnerable. Conversely, to dismiss and explain away when he's bested by Kim Jong Un, Recep Erdogan, and Vladimir Putin is to leave us all vulnerable.

Being spectacularly bad at the job and engaging in criminal behavior are different things. The remedy is different for each. I think our current President is guilty of both.

[mzilliox]

I always smile when I see folks spin and make this 'point'. Certainly you can understand that strategies would have been very different if it were simply a 'popular' vote ? Did trump even campaign in California? Do you believe that trump would have run the same exact campaign if the election were 'popular' vote? Certainly you can see the intellectually dishonesty in '....but...but...popular vote'.

My best guess is that if the presidential election would have been a 'popular vote' trump would have won that too.

of course you would pick one line from my retort, and the least important bit. he was speaking to a hypothetical about beating trump... i was presenting a bit of info that suggests its not far fetched to imagine trump being beat, since more people voted for someone else last time. im not trying to argue anything about the valididty of the win, its over and done, there is no disputing reality right? and your premise that he would have campaigned different if there was no electoral college may be true, but since it didnt happen, its just pontificating. There is a case to be made that in a popular vote, Trump would not be able to mobilze enough of his base in every state to compete, but thats another talk. instead lets stick to the topic, the idea that Folks who find Trump unfit are incapable of changing their minds if presented evidence to the contrary. but again, you choose not to reply to the main part of the argument.

i am reminded of post 374 by Flash
"It's a perfectly valid argument to make that one cares more about what Trump has delivered on judicial nominees, tax cuts, and a wholesale assault on the federal civil service that you can look past the racism, sexism, and general air of cruelty the entire administration projects.

But then that puts to the sword any claims about moral authority, superiority, or any sense of integrity about politics or our political system. It makes anyone making that argument an amoral jackal and those who support him for all the former but hate all the latter know this.

It's why you won't get any defenses to it. The cruelty, at the end of the day, is the point of the whole thing."

head, meet wall

[Matthew Strongin]

I always smile when I see folks spin and make this 'point'. Certainly you can understand that strategies would have been very different if it were simply a 'popular' vote ? Did trump even campaign in California? Do you believe that trump would have run the same exact campaign if the election were 'popular' vote? Certainly you can see the intellectually dishonesty in '....but...but...popular vote'.

My best guess is that if the presidential election would have been a 'popular vote' trump would have won that too.

For the most part, I agree with you on this. Trump came out ahead with the system that was in place. I don't know that he would have made up that gap in popular votes by campaigning differently, but we'll never know as the popular vote isn't how we choose presidents in this country. I think the electoral college is worth a closer look to see if it's still the best method, but I'm also generally loathe to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to established institutions of government. And, for whatever it's worth, it's the system we have. Generally speaking I'd rather people focus their ire on the impacts of foreign influence (all the disinformation being discussed above) than the counts of the popular vote.

I will also add that I think the impacts of gerrymandering and how it plays into election results is a significant issue and one that Rs have used to their benefit much more effectively than Ds.

[Dallas Tex]

of course you would pick one line from my retort, and the least important bit. he was speaking to a hypothetical about beating trump... i was presenting a bit of info that suggests its not far fetched to imagine trump being beat, since more people voted for someone else last time. im not trying to argue anything about the valididty of the win, its over and done, there is no disputing reality right? and your premise that he would have campaigned different if there was no electoral college may be true, but since it didnt happen, its just pontificating. There is a case to be made that in a popular vote, Trump would not be able to mobilze enough of his base in every state to compete, but thats another talk. instead lets stick to the topic, the idea that Folks who find Trump unfit are incapable of changing their minds if presented evidence to the contrary. but again, you choose not to reply to the main part of the argument.

head, meet wall:confused:

This confusion of yours revolves around the idea that people that don't agree with you do so out of ignorance or stubbornness? To put it bluntly people that don't agree with you just aren't listening close enough or haven't paid enough attention to the 'irrefutable opinions' that you've presented.

This sort of spills over into another thing that I frequently hear that I find amusing. 'Why do all these people vote against their own interests?' Coming from the assumption that you know best for all of these people. You alone possess the one real truth, anyone that disagrees isn't simply operating under a different opinion....they're simply wrong and too stupid to acknowledge your one real truth.

Let me offer you some free advice. People that don't agree with your politics may simply have a different opinion. It could be polar opposite to things that you hold near & dear. Maybe you've provided what you feel are very strong arguments supporting your point of view, but they won't join you in your beliefs.

Anyway, this is my free advice: not everyone that disagrees with you is wrong.

[Dallas Tex]

For the most part, I agree with you on this. Trump came out ahead with the system that was in place. I don't know that he would have made up that gap in popular votes by campaigning differently, but we'll never know as the popular vote isn't how we choose presidents in this country. I think the electoral college is worth a closer look to see if it's still the best method, but I'm also generally loathe to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to established institutions of government. And, for whatever it's worth, it's the system we have. Generally speaking I'd rather people focus their ire on the impacts of foreign influence (all the disinformation being discussed above) than the counts of the popular vote.

I will also add that I think the impacts of gerrymandering and how it plays into election results is a significant issue and one that Rs have used to their benefit much more effectively than Ds.

There are good aspects of redistricting. Consolidating minority votes out of 3 districts into one district to afford representation. But like everything it turns into a shitshow very quickly. I don't have the right answer.....

I don't know about changes to the electoral college, seems like it would immediately disenfranchise entire regions of the country. One thing I hate about texas is for years we never got many political ads on TV because it was always a forgone conclusion, so why waste the ad money. Thats my entire experience with disenfranchisement and being 'ignored'

Anyway, I'm honest enough to admit that if the electoral college kept putting in dems with lower popular vote #s I'm sure 95% of republicans would be arguing for doing away with it. Which makes me think just leave it alone.

[theflashunc]

For 200+ years in this country we've had only one instance where the electoral college and popular vote didn't align. And beginning in 2000 it's happened twice in the last 20 years. Something has changed about Presidential electoral politics and not for the better when the Electoral college and popular vote disconnect.

And again, the Electoral college is a relic of a system put in place to delay the discussion of abolition as long as possible. To retain it is a weird legacy to keep alive.

[Dallas Tex]

Okay, let's play this for the sake of argument. Here's one example in the image below. This was a Russian controlled social media account followed by voters, which spread lies and half truths to people who thought they were getting information straight from the Tennessee GOP:



The pro Trump Russian intelligence campaign posted social media ads that became real life events the Trump campaign acknowledged and supported through social media. These ads were particularly devastating spreading disinformation given the surgical precision with which you can target ads on Facebook and other social platforms.



Or ads like this which are not true to buttress the horseshit claims from Trump about the wall building:



All of this propaganda, disinformation and influence peddling (this doesn't even touch the open courting of Guccifer, which turned out to be Russian cyber intelligence services openly hacking Democratic party and Clinton campaign systems) turned public perception. Maybe it didn't change your mind, but there's plenty of diehard Trump supporters who bought all this hook, line and sinker. And the President is actively telling anyone to ignore anything that says otherwise, which is insanely dangerous heading into 2020.

Here's some reading if the full report is too much for you: Here’s A Detailed Look At How Russian Trolls Used Social Media To Meddle In The 216 Election, According To The Mueller Report

Thanks for posting this. I'm just now seeing this for some reason. Thanks honestly this helps me frame the discussion much better. Not exaggerating, I've never seen shit like that before

[mzilliox]

Thats not at all what my confusion revolves around at all, you misunderstand my intent, and this is why we fail to comunicate well. but thanks for that free advise.

I seek to understand YOU, i want to know your opinion, in detail, not just in general. i do not wish for you to conform to my ideals, i wish for you to challenge them in a real way with insights. I get that you support Trump, and i get that you find this to be a good choice. but i dont know what you hold near and dear. I can assume as a human, you like clean water, safe food, happy family, and the ability to live without fear.
this is not about right and wrong glenn, as we are both right to ourselves, this is about arguing your position and why you think its right. how is this not clear? there have been calls for debate, this is what debate is: justifying your position in the face of contrary opinions. simply stating we have different ones is easy. we both already know that.

I dont know anything about one "real truth", thats nonsense. im not saying i have any good solutions either, my position is only this: I cannot support a leader who acts for his own good, lies, cheats, steals, and makes derogatory comments about anything at all he pleases, from immigrants to women to his intellegence committee. my position is not in favor of warren, or sanders, or mayor pete yet, because im still waiting on all of the information to make my choice.

One can prove without doubt that Trump lies and cheats, there are concrete examples. its not my opinion that he cheats and lies, it just is. In your oinion does he cheat and lie? lets see if we share opinions before we assume we dont. what is your opinion on his lies? what is your opinion on him stealing from charity? if you cant offer this, i can never begin to understand.

so lets go here. i understand why people voted for trump, i get the intial reasons. i completely understand. what i am wondering is why after 3 yrs do you still think its the right call? how have his deficincies managed to not outweigh his benefits as far as you are concerned? id like to know your and anyone's opinion on this.

I dont know how i can be more open minded than this? i dont know how i can show i want to understand any more than asking. i cant approach with more good faith than this... please.

have a great day Glenn (and everyone else). I know you are an alright guy with different views than me and i embrace that. you have made effort to sustain conversation, and thats a pretty good start.

[mzilliox]

Thanks for posting this. I'm just now seeing this for some reason. Thanks honestly this helps me frame the discussion much better. Not exaggerating, I've never seen shit like that before

thanks for approaching this honestly Glenn. truely i am not trying to win points here in this discussion, as they are not worth shit. i am only trying to have honest discourse with fellow Americans in good faith, just as everyone else here providing fatcs and ideas is. please lets not play the game otherwise, with cute little jabs and putting things into peoples mouths they never said. Lets start now, lets get real, lets embrace the spirit of that navy seal who article you loved so much, and lets talk

[Colinmclelland]

Nope. Trump is driving the bus.

Sorry, i was flippant before.

But the current US president has a policy of “putting America first”. Is that accepted?

So America is withdrawing from international arenas, entirely consistently with that policy. That leaves a vacuum of influence not continued leadership.

How can you argue that you can tell other countries you are looking after yourselves first and expect to retain their respect and have them view you as leaders?

Putting America first quite naturally results in a reduced global leadership role. If it didn’t, you wouldn’t be doing it very well.

I don’t see how you can argue that “Trump is driving the bus” internationally when he’s quite open both with his policy and actions that he doesn’t want to be. His foreign policy reflects the fact that there are more Americans who vote than there are Americans with passports.

I happen to be of the view that that is a mistake. It creates a vacuum that others are filling and I don’t think it will be as easy to get back as it was to give up.

[colker]

Sorry, i was flippant before.

But the current US president has a policy of “putting America first”. Is that accepted?

So America is withdrawing from international arenas, entirely consistently with that policy. That leaves a vacuum of influence not continued leadership.

How can you argue that you can tell other countries you are looking after yourselves first and expect to retain their respect and have them view you as leaders?

Putting America first quite naturally results in a reduced global leadership role. If it didn’t, you wouldn’t be doing it very well.

I don’t see how you can argue that “Trump is driving the bus” internationally when he’s quite open both with his policy and actions that he doesn’t want to be. His foreign policy reflects the fact that there are more Americans who vote than there are Americans with passports.

I happen to be of the view that that is a mistake. It creates a vacuum that others are filling and I don’t think it will be as easy to get back as it was to give up.

We are in a very different world from the one we had right after the end of cold war when the berlin wall came down. There isn´t anymore one Empire rulling over. In the past every single localized conflict had the US mediating. Not anymore. The empire also pushed for centered politics everywhere in the world during the 90s. Some were slightly left centered while others right centered. We had a tremendous shift lately towards radical extreme politics. Far right mostly. First in Europe and now in Latin America.
You could perceive these shifts as caused by Trump but it may be that Trump was brought up as another of it´s consequences. Putin´s rise precedes Trump. The US still play a big hand in the middle east and tries to tip toe in Venezuela but it´s not dealing w/ Pakistan x India, China x Hong Kong, Ukraine x Russia and many other localized conflicts. In a way it´s exactly the scenario the left always wanted: end of american imperialism and yet it´s run by the far right.