Caroline Kennedy --- 2020

[King Of Dirk]

I think Australia has got a lot of things right that the US has not and it would be a good idea for the US to emulate us (such as our electoral system which I highlighted in the other politics thread going on at the moment, our public health system, our public education and university system, our gun control policies...),

Don't forget their immigration system. I'd sure like for the United States to take a page from Australia's (or Mexico's...or Norway's...) book on that one.

[King Of Dirk]

I am generally repulsed by patriotism, but I am inclined to say that the only form of it that I think I could abide by would be to understand it as the impetus to hold your own country to the highest standards possible. Unfortunately I don't find this to be the usual way patriotism manifests itself - it tends towards the opposite, more an ignorant pride, blind to such failings.

On this, my friend, we can certainly agree.

[Corso]

So, indeed, I would not exist were it not for British imperialism but indeed also for US military intervention against fascism. Does the fact that my existence relies upon these things mean that I must accept them as necessarily and unquestionably being good things?

I don't have such a high opinion of myself to think that I am an end that has justified all of the means that have given me the particularly privileged life that I lead.

First, thank you for sharing all of that personal information. Sincerely. You could have easily left out the American soldier part, kudos for your honesty.

That said, yeah, interesting on how things turn out.

(BBB, now see what I was getting at?)

It's only fair that I share my roots, a more condensed version. My Fathers parents are both full Italian, their lines from Rome & Malta, arrived to this country through Ellis Island pre WW1.

My late mother was Mexican American, with her family tree having roots in New Mexico and Arizona, all the way back when those territories were still part of Mexico.

The US won the Mexican-American war, and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848) made what we now know as Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming and the disputed Texas territory part of the US.

It's always amused me that when I tell them I'm half Mexican, the assumption is that my Mother recently moved from Mexico to the US ("umm, how did she get in"), when in fact the bloodline goes back generations before most of their own European or African American families arrived across the ocean.

Mexican-Americans have that odd identity problem, at least in the Northeast, where I live.

[ABiCi]

Don't forget their immigration system. I'd sure like for the United States to take a page from Australia's (or Mexico's...or Norway's...) book on that one.

For the most part we are pretty good on immigration. We are a country that has been built off the back of repeated waves of migration from all around the world. It is a strength, not a weakness, to welcome more people to Australia.

We need to lift our game on the humanitarian side of things in a pretty major way, though. We have a whole lot of asylum seekers held in indefinite detention on small islands in the Pacific, including children, waiting way too long for processing. There are serious physical and mental health consequences from this policy and it is a national disgrace which, unfortunately, both major parties have decided is a necessary evil to convince people to not attempt to sail to Australia seeking asylum. The UN continuously condemns us for it, with total justification, and we do nothing about it. We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world, we have had one of the most robust economies throughout all of the turmoil of the last decade, and our refugee intake is embarrassingly small despite our capacity to take more.

[ABiCi]

First, thank you for sharing all of that personal information. Sincerely. You could have easily left out the American soldier part, kudos for your honesty.

That said, yeah, interesting on how things turn out.

(BBB, now see what I was getting at?)

It's only fair that I share my roots, a more condensed version. My Fathers parents are both full Italian, their lines from Rome & Malta, arrived to this country through Ellis Island pre WW1.

My late mother was Mexican American, with her family tree having roots in New Mexico and Arizona, all the way back when those territories were still part of Mexico.

The US won the Mexican-American war, and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848) made what we now know as Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Wyoming and the disputed Texas territory part of the US.

It's always amused me that when I tell them I'm half Mexican, the assumption is that my Mother recently moved from Mexico to the US ("umm, how did she get in"), when in fact the bloodline goes back generations before most of their own European or African American families arrived across the ocean.

Mexican-Americans have that odd identity problem, at least in the Northeast, where I live.

I could have left out all of the role the US played in my families history... but to what end? You may think I'm interested in "winning" this discussion, but I'm much more interested in it being an honest discussion, so omitting or fabricating details to avoid having to acknowledge potentially uncomfortable facts.

Your family's history highlights one point that I think it is important to remember - so much of what we use to separate people into "us" and "them" is incredibly arbitrary. A line on a piece of paper, the consequence of events mostly forgotten. One day a space was Mexico, the next it was the USA. And yet we allow these divisions to carry so much weight and meaning. We will kill each other because of them.

I live in a city that still bears the scars of the wall that separated East from West. One of my favourite places in it, somewhere I ride my bike past most days, is a ramshackle little shack and garden on a strange triangle of land by a canal and some major roads. As a result of the wall builders cutting corners in the rush to get the thing up, this little part of east Berlin ended up outside of the wall. An enterprising Turkish guy, Osman Kalin, decided to set up house here. The authorities on the western side weren't happy about it, but technically they couldn't stop him because it wasn't their land. The authorities on the east saw it was pissing off those on the west, so they just let him have it. When the wall came down the new government tried to evict him, but due to pressure from the community and the church next door (who, despite Osman being a Muslim, had been great supporters of him over the years), they had to bow to popular demand and the house and garden still remains to this day, though sadly Osman himself died last year aged 96. You can read more about this place here: 'My daring grandfather took a bit of East Berlin for himself' - BBC News

I love this story because it really captures the ridiculousness and futility of our attempts to divide ourselves up, not to mention how enterprising people can be and how great things can be done when we ignore those things that divide us and connect through our common humanity.

It isn't too much a stretch to bring this back to the topic of this thread. Building walls to separate "us" from "them" is not ever a sustainable policy because the wall is always an attempt at making concrete a division that is largely fictional - the fiction that the people on one side are different to the people on the other. Eventually the truth catches up and the wall comes down. Unfortunately in the interim a whole lot of damage can be done and lives will be lost. For what? For maintaining a fiction... or for maintaining a lie to be a little less charitable.

[BBB]

(BBB, now see what I was getting at?)

Sorry, I must be having a slower than normal day.

This is what you said:

"You know, a powerful nations (Britain and France I believe) who strongly influences a weaker nation by force and government? Without such an invasion, ultimately, after several generations- you Rob, may not even be walking the planet?"

In an Australian context, if no one had invaded, then the indigenous population would have happily kept on living they way they had for the tens of thousands of years prior. I wouldn't be here, or at least some other alternative version of myself may be stalking around the UK somewhere. Other than that, I can't see the relevance, or the point you are trying to make.

[sine]

I live in a city that still bears the scars of the wall that separated East from West.

My mom left Berlin when the wall went up. I spent summers visiting relatives in East Germany and communist Hungary.

My uncles fondly remember chocolates falling from the sky.

The Sweet Story of the Berlin Candy Bomber
|
Smart News
| Smithsonian

The top of rubble pile I walked on in West Berlin was were my future father in law worked. Note.....some cycling content.

1 incredible facts about the Teufelsberg spy station in Berlin - The Local

[ides1056]

Fine interview with the mayor of El Paso:

Texas Mayor Discusses Impact Of The Government Shutdown : NPR

[Corso]

Sorry, I must be having a slower than normal day.

This is what you said:

"You know, a powerful nations (Britain and France I believe) who strongly influences a weaker nation by force and government? Without such an invasion, ultimately, after several generations- you Rob, may not even be walking the planet?"

In an Australian context, if no one had invaded, then the indigenous population would have happily kept on living they way they had for the tens of thousands of years prior. I wouldn't be here, or at least some other alternative version of myself may be stalking around the UK somewhere. Other than that, I can't see the relevance, or the point you are trying to make.

That's my point, and it was asked of Rob, not you. But if the shoe fits.

To clarify: we can't change the past, but if larger more powerful countries didn't invade, explore, take over, for good or for bad, the world as we know it would be very different.

[bcm119]

I was asked directly why I (capital I) think the United States of America is the greatest country. So I answered.

Who said I was trying to make a "convincing argument"?

If you want to, be my guest and jump right in and tell us what you love about this country. I promise not to criticize your opinion.

Shall we all rattle off stereotypes of people from countries around the globe? It will get ugly REAL FAST. But sure, it's fine to say "Loudmouthed American"...

I referred to the loudmouthed American stereotype as an existing idiom to be aware of; I didn't use it in a way that confirms my belief in it. There is a difference. And it's fine to use stereotypes as tools for social commentary. Don't fall into the mindset that stereotypes are taboo, or they will continue to exist beneath the surface, like racism.

I think a little self awareness of how our American patriotism appears to outsiders, as well as our own citizens who are struggling, is helpful in today's political climate. That was my point. Sorry if you felt I was criticizing your love of your country, I wasn't. It's my favorite country too, but I don't believe I'm in a position to judge whether it's the best one.

[ABiCi]

My mom left Berlin when the wall went up. I spent summers visiting relatives in East Germany and communist Hungary.

My uncles fondly remember chocolates falling from the sky.

The Sweet Story of the Berlin Candy Bomber
|
Smart News
| Smithsonian

The top of rubble pile I walked on in West Berlin was were my future father in law worked. Note.....some cycling content.

1 incredible facts about the Teufelsberg spy station in Berlin - The Local

Teufelsberg and its neighbouring lake is one of my other favourite places in the city, spend a lot of the summer in the forest there.

[BBB]

That's my point, and it was asked of Rob, not you. But if the shoe fits.

To clarify: we can't change the past, but if larger more powerful countries didn't invade, explore, take over, for good or for bad, the world as we know it would be very different.

Indeed. But, I'm not sure why you were making this point. And while you acknowledge the bad, the overall sentiment is incredibly dismissive of the suffering native populations the world over endured.

[Corso]

Indeed. But, I'm not sure why you were making this point. And while you acknowledge the bad, the overall sentiment is incredibly dismissive of the suffering native populations the world over endured.

If you don't get my point or why I was making it, I can't help you. Even though you agree I've "acknowledged the bad", I didn't do so in a way that pleases you?

You may translate my short clarification as "dismissive", I was being brief. We're beating a dead horse.

[ABiCi]

Back to 2020, today I read the profile of Pete Buttigieg in the New Yorker and I like the cut of his jib.

The Democratic Presidential Nominee Pete Buttigieg’s Quiet Rebellion | The New Yorker

I started trawling around the net for other pieces on him. I really liked his response to this question:

Twitter

No chance of getting the nomination, though.

[Doug Fattic]

...I read the profile of Pete Buttigieg in the New Yorker and I like the cut of his jib...No chance of getting the nomination, though.

Pete Buttigieg (pronounced Boo-tah-judge) is the 37-year-old mayor of South Bend Indiana (a city of about 100,00 inhabitants) 10 miles south of Niles, Michigan where I live. It is home to Notre Dame University on the north side of town. Most of its many manufacturing companies like Studebaker automobiles and South Bend Lathe have closed. Mayor Pete has been extremely effective as a mayor (elected with 80% of the vote) getting rid of abandoned houses as its population has shrunk and the city is known for having one of the best sewage systems in the US. He knows how to fix potholes. I’ve chatted with him a couple of times when the Michiana Bicycle Club organized some events around Bike-to-Work week. South Bend and Mayor Pete has done a very good job of making the city bike friendly. All the TV stations I watch come from South Bend (I don’t have cable) so I hear about him and from him all the time. He is crazy intelligent and very articulate. He graduated summa cum laude from Harvard and was a Rhodes scholar and did a tour in Afghanistan. His dad died recently and both he and his mother were professors at Notre Dame. He recently published a book about his life including how he found his husband a middle school teacher online. It would be naïve to think this fact wouldn’t have an impact on his future political success.

Since this subject thread is about Caroline Kennedy I will put this quote about Pete from Wikipedia. The St Joe high he attended is a Roman Catholic school and in case someone doesn’t know, Notre Dame University where his parents taught is a Catholic university. Of course not every professor is Catholic as one of the members of my local Protestant church is a professor there too. “Buttigieg graduated from St. Joseph High School in 2000, where he was president and valedictorian of his senior class. In his senior year at St. Joseph's High School, he was honored by Caroline Kennedy and other members of President Kennedy's family during a May 22, 2000 ceremony at the John F. Kennedy Library in Boston for his prize-winning essay for the JFK Profiles in Courage Essay Contest. Buttigieg’s winning essay centered on the integrity and political courage demonstrated by then-U.S. Congressman Bernie Sanders of Vermont, one of his nation's only Independent members of Congress.”

[mzilliox]

very solid jib cut, hes going nowhere fast... sad but true im afraid. ill vote for him ...

[Bob Ross]

Pete Buttigieg (pronounced Boo-tah-judge)

I saw that exact phonetic explanation in a recent profile on Mayor Pete, and it surprised me: I have a coworker named Buttigieg (who's also from Malta, as is Mayor Pete's lineage) and he insists it's pronounced "Byoo-tah-zhay"

[Doug Fattic]

I saw that exact phonetic explanation in a recent profile on Mayor Pete, and it surprised me: I have a coworker named Buttigieg (who's also from Malta, as is Mayor Pete's lineage) and he insists it's pronounced "Byoo-tah-zhay"

Well I'm sure someone from Malta knows exactly how to pronounce his own name. My assumption is that the pronunciation of Mayor Pete's last name has been Americanized. I've seen it phonetically written Boot-edge-edge too but that isn't how the local TV news anchors pronounce it. I was listening to Joshua Johnson of NPR's 1-A and he said he practiced the pronunciation before saying he was another Democratic candidate for president. Joshua's attempt to pronounce it was the same way I've heard the South Bend news anchors pronounce it which is how I phonetically wrote it the 1st time. Mayor Pete doesn't make much attempt to train others how to say his last name and says to call him "Mayor Pete".

[Corso]

Never heard of him until this thread. I wouldn't say he has no chance, look what happened last time.

I've quickly googled him, like what I've read so far on Mr Buttigieg. I'm not so thrilled with many others on the D side who are running.

I watched my senior senator Liz Warren formally announce yesterday. I don't like her one bit.
I'm aware many of my fellow MA Commonwealth Solonistas will disagree strongly with me. But we may be "too close" to her for my following request.

What I am curious about, is how the rest of the country and world (yes, I've learned to be inclusive) feel about her? A quick informal poll without pages of debate?

Thumbs up? Thumbs down?

[ABiCi]

Never heard of him until this thread. I wouldn't say he has no chance, look what happened last time.

I've quickly googled him, like what I've read so far on Mr Buttigieg. I'm not so thrilled with many others on the D side who are running.

I watched my senior senator Liz Warren formally announce yesterday. I don't like her one bit.
I'm aware many of my fellow MA Commonwealth Solonistas will disagree strongly with me. But we may be "too close" to her for my following request.

What I am curious about, is how the rest of the country and world (yes, I've learned to be inclusive) feel about her? A quick informal poll without pages of debate?

Thumbs up? Thumbs down?

What don't you like about her?

From a policy perspective, I think there is a lot to like. She has a big, progressive agenda and a good focus on rights for workers.

She isn't going to shake free from that albatross around her neck, though, and I would worry that it hurts her chances at winning the election enough to prefer another candidate as a result.

The latest tweet from Trump on Warren:

Today Elizabeth Warren, sometimes referred to by me as Pocahontas, joined the race for President. Will she run as our first Native American presidential candidate, or has she decided that after 32 years, this is not playing so well anymore? See you on the campaign TRAIL, Liz!

Twitter

This is the guy you want to be President?