Caroline Kennedy --- 2020

[ABiCi]

I just re-read my post from the point of you starting this debate, and not once did I call you a liar. Please show me where I did. I believe you believe the stuff you have read.

I don't know what arguments you are having in your head, but don't make false accusations.

I hate to disappoint you, but you are not teaching me anything I didn't already know. I'm not one to stay up at night worrying about the sins of the past, something I did not have anything to do with.

Certain things our Country did bothers the hell out of me, most happened before I was born. Nothing you or I can do about them.

"This false sense of the US's greatness is at the foundation of so much of the wrongs that the US commits abroad and the wrongs that it commits at home."

Your quote above is your opinion. Not Fact. There is a difference you seem to be wrestling with.

Here is a quote from you:

You've made plenty of enormous accusations, some true, most just theories. Just because YOU think you know what has happened with our foreign policies doesn't mean it's all true.

You said "some" of my "plenty" of accusations were true. I took that to imply you felt I was making a whole bunch of false accusations. A false accusation is a lie.

So.... yeah, I don't think it is a false accusation for me to say that you said I was making false accusations when you said that only some of my accusations were true...

[Corso]

Here is a quote from you:



You said "some" of my "plenty" of accusations were true. I took that to imply you felt I was making a whole bunch of false accusations. A false accusation is a lie.

So.... yeah, I don't think it is a false accusation for me to say that you said I was making false accusations when you said that only some of my accusations were true...

Are you so thin-skinned? That is not calling you a liar. You're reading into things far too much.

[ABiCi]

Are you so thin-skinned? That is not calling you a liar. You're reading into things far too much.

It don't think the thickness of my skin is an issue here. If you make a bunch of accusations and someone tells you only some of them are true I think it is pretty reasonable to interpret from that statement that they think you are making a bunch of false accusations alongside the true ones.

I did ask you to specify which of the accusations I made wasn't true a couple of times. You never did...

[Corso]

c3f7172f741fcc1af59f13af11343068.jpg

Why don't you go after these guys next? Who are they to say they have the World's finest custard?

I'm not going to specify which of your "truths" is debatable, as you have proven you're not backing away from anything, and I really don't feel like debating events in the past. This has gone on too long anyhow.

So what's your bottom line? I'll play: Even if ALL you have posted was to be true, do you think anyone here from the US is going to pull stakes and move to Germany? Do you think anyone is going to do anything differently tomorrow?

It's pretty amusing to me, to think you believe it's your mission here to educate me on my country.

[BBB]

I'll answer, and my opinion is not open to debate: Yeah, it is arrogant I suppose. But if I don't believe in my country, why would I live & raise my family here?

For a relatively young nation, we have risen to the top quickly-compared to other older countries. Our Constitution and the freedoms it provides. The Civil War didn't destroy us. We ended 2 world wars we did not start. We helped rebuild the countries we helped defeat in WW2. The Wright Brothers. P-51's, F-16s, SR-71 Blackbird. We were the first on the moon. We have enjoyed freedoms that some countries just have begun to exercise. Big Star. Highways, electricity, indoor plumbing, cable & satellite Television. We are the first country other countries come to when they need help. Boston Medical Centers and medical research & discoveries. IBM. The Grand Canyon. The Ivy League and our college system. We are an extremely charitable nation. Johnny Cash. The Smithsonian. The Stock Market. Fender guitars. Without us, NATO and the UN are toothless. Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, The Talking Heads. Chuck Berry. Drag Racing. Late 60s-early 70s Muscle cars. Hollywood. The USS Constitution. All handmade Bicycle craftsmen & women. Route 66. Our often messy, not perfect but still our Political System. I can vote. The Boston Bruins. Jonathan Richman. Freedom of Religion. I can travel freely anywhere in the country, anytime I choose. The coast of Maine, the beauty of Hawaii to Alaska and everything in between. American Football. The Indy 500. Greg LeMond. The PanMass Challenge. Al Gore inventing the internet (sorry-couldn't help myself). Big cities, Small towns. Our military, police & fire fighters. For each state's differences, we can come together when needed. We are (arguably) the Strongest Nation on Earth-and that's an accomplishment.

Are we perfect? Far from it. Are we still the "go to" place when others are in need? I believe so.

There is a fair bit of USA uber alles in this post, which, I think you'll find that people in other countries find dis-tasteful. Historically, nationalism has been a pretty corrosive force and is a bit of a turn off.

And while you've pointed out some useful things (in your opinion - and it is worth noting that some of the things mentioned were imported...the stock market, demoncracy, the college system) a lot of people may say, yeah but what about all the mass shootings or inequalitable health care (and the on-going inability to deal with either).

No one is going to decide to move countries as a result of this dis-course, or think anything less of their own country, but sometimes it is being alive to these issues and how others may perceive them is important.

[ABiCi]

c3f7172f741fcc1af59f13af11343068.jpg

Why don't you go after these guys next? Who are they to say they have the World's finest custard?

I'm not going to specify which of your "truths" is debatable, as you have proven you're not backing away from anything, and I really don't feel like debating events in the past. This has gone on too long anyhow.

So what's your bottom line? I'll play: Even if ALL you have posted was to be true, do you think anyone here from the US is going to pull stakes and move to Germany? Do you think anyone is going to do anything differently tomorrow?

It's pretty amusing to me, to think you believe it's your mission here to educate me on my country.

How many lives have been lost around the world because the people of Leon believed they were the purveyors of the world's finest frozen custard?

I'm not going to back away from the "truths" I shared (Why the inverted commas? It seems like you are still trying to undermine or dismiss the truth of the claims I made, despite the evidence I provided) without you providing any reason for me to do so. Got evidence that I'm wrong, let me know, I'll reconsider my position. You know, like a rational person would.

I don't think anyone is going to emigrate as a result of this conversation. Maybe they should, though? they could find themselves in a better place.

A little more realistically maybe someone will open their minds a little to question the dogma of American exceptionalism, will consider investigating how other countries work, how in many ways other countries are getting better results on health care, on education, on workers rights, on environmental protection, on energy production, on legal freedoms and human rights, etc. Maybe this will lead that person to want to change the US for the better rather than to rest of a reputation that is out of step with reality. Maybe it will lead them to look at the rest of the world for examples of what could be done better. Maybe it will lead them to be a little more cynical about claims about how good the US is at home and how good it is abroad. Maybe it will mean they start to hold people who peddle lies about all of these things to account.

Most likely it will achieve absolutely nothing, but such is life.

You think it is pretty amusing that I'm trying to educate you about your own country. I think it is pretty amusing you need to be educated about your own country.

[ides1056]

So this leads us back to the discussion of who among the candidates so far to announce would consider this statement worthy of consideration:

A little more realistically maybe someone will open their minds a little to question the dogma of American exceptionalism, will consider investigating how other countries work, how in many ways other countries are getting better results on health care, on education, on workers rights, on environmental protection, on energy production, on legal freedoms and human rights, etc. Maybe this will lead that person to want to change the US for the better rather than to rest of a reputation that is out of step with reality. Maybe it will lead them to look at the rest of the world for examples of what could be done better. Maybe it will lead them to be a little more cynical about claims about how good the US is at home and how good it is abroad. Maybe it will mean they start to hold people who peddle lies about all of these things to account.

Who is campaigning on making the country a better place, who has a progressive agenda that might improve matters here and abroad?

And Corso, that's a fine list, and one I don't find much to argue about.

[Dallas Tex]

Who is campaigning on making the country a better place, who has a progressive agenda that might improve matters here and abroad?

Donald J. Trump, President of the United States of America.

[ides1056]

and pigs will fly

[mzilliox]

Donald J. Trump, President of the United States of America.

hes always campaigning, ill give you that...

and that homer list provided above was funny. it failed to mention why we rose to the top so quickly, on the backs of raped land and slavery. yeah, this was a unique place at one point, now its just what it is, the leader of a world thats ever becoming more the same. and we are a massive bully.

[mzilliox]

How many lives have been lost around the world because the people of Leon believed they were the purveyors of the world's finest frozen custard?

I'm not going to back away from the "truths" I shared (Why the inverted commas? It seems like you are still trying to undermine or dismiss the truth of the claims I made, despite the evidence I provided) without you providing any reason for me to do so. Got evidence that I'm wrong, let me know, I'll reconsider my position. You know, like a rational person would.

I don't think anyone is going to emigrate as a result of this conversation. Maybe they should, though? they could find themselves in a better place.

A little more realistically maybe someone will open their minds a little to question the dogma of American exceptionalism, will consider investigating how other countries work, how in many ways other countries are getting better results on health care, on education, on workers rights, on environmental protection, on energy production, on legal freedoms and human rights, etc. Maybe this will lead that person to want to change the US for the better rather than to rest of a reputation that is out of step with reality. Maybe it will lead them to look at the rest of the world for examples of what could be done better. Maybe it will lead them to be a little more cynical about claims about how good the US is at home and how good it is abroad. Maybe it will mean they start to hold people who peddle lies about all of these things to account.

Most likely it will achieve absolutely nothing, but such is life.

You think it is pretty amusing that I'm trying to educate you about your own country. I think it is pretty amusing you need to be educated about your own country.

thanks, i like this post. Any post about American exceptionalism brag that doesnt mention slaves and genocide is blindly proud. That is why we are rich and prosperous today.
and yes, several places have better ideas about governing. and several other places are actually considering the future as it will be, with robots, and less people doing meaningless work. some countries are taking serious this climate change hoax, because to not take a hoax seriously if its not a hoax is pretty stupid. but over here we did hamburgers and jonny cash or something so great again.

after the address to the nation last night, hell yes im considering pulling stakes and moving to Europe. I texted my wife, hey, im staying in France in May, start looking for a job. So yeah whoever guy up there thinks nobody here would pull up and move. People do it all the time. I know a couple who is French and American, guess where they are leaving from and going to? so nice to have the choice to immigrate somewhere you think your life will be better eh.... ehhh? eh??? ahehhh, im middle class, white and male, nobody cares where i go.

[woodworker]

All I heard was blah, blah, blah and a crack at the Man in Black. Oh no you don't!!!!! :big smile:

Anyone who could record Ring of Fire, Sunday Morning Coming Down, and write I Walk the Line defines American Exceptionalism.

...now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[bcm119]

I'll answer, and my opinion is not open to debate: Yeah, it is arrogant I suppose. But if I don't believe in my country, why would I live & raise my family here?

For a relatively young nation, we have risen to the top quickly-compared to other older countries. Our Constitution and the freedoms it provides. The Civil War didn't destroy us. We ended 2 world wars we did not start. We helped rebuild the countries we helped defeat in WW2. The Wright Brothers. P-51's, F-16s, SR-71 Blackbird. We were the first on the moon. We have enjoyed freedoms that some countries just have begun to exercise. Big Star. Highways, electricity, indoor plumbing, cable & satellite Television. We are the first country other countries come to when they need help. Boston Medical Centers and medical research & discoveries. IBM. The Grand Canyon. The Ivy League and our college system. We are an extremely charitable nation. Johnny Cash. The Smithsonian. The Stock Market. Fender guitars. Without us, NATO and the UN are toothless. Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, The Talking Heads. Chuck Berry. Drag Racing. Late 60s-early 70s Muscle cars. Hollywood. The USS Constitution. All handmade Bicycle craftsmen & women. Route 66. Our often messy, not perfect but still our Political System. I can vote. The Boston Bruins. Jonathan Richman. Freedom of Religion. I can travel freely anywhere in the country, anytime I choose. The coast of Maine, the beauty of Hawaii to Alaska and everything in between. American Football. The Indy 500. Greg LeMond. The PanMass Challenge. Al Gore inventing the internet (sorry-couldn't help myself). Big cities, Small towns. Our military, police & fire fighters. For each state's differences, we can come together when needed. We are (arguably) the Strongest Nation on Earth-and that's an accomplishment.

Are we perfect? Far from it. Are we still the "go to" place when others are in need? I believe so.

I appreciate that reply. I love a lot of those things too. But these are all reasons that this is your favorite country, and not a convincing argument for it being objectively the greatest country. Perhaps it's trivial, but statements like yours do nothing to negate the loudmouthed American stereotype. And I bet you don't care.

[Corso]

Most likely it will achieve absolutely nothing, but such is life.

You think it is pretty amusing that I'm trying to educate you about your own country. I think it is pretty amusing you need to be educated about your own country.

Why don't we take a break and continue after the US takes over Venezuela? I can't wait for lower gas prices. Or will Russia beat us to it?

Rob, being from Australia, is your gene pool from the Indigenous People or those empire seeking Europeans? You know, a powerful nations (Britain and France I believe) who strongly influences a weaker nation by force and government? Without such an invasion, ultimately, after several generations- you Rob, may not even be walking the planet?

But I don't really know Australian history that well. Nor will I assume I could educate an Australian on his or her own country.

But from all I've heard, It's a really nice place. It's on my list to visit.

[King Of Dirk]

I appreciate that reply. I love a lot of those things too. But these are all reasons that this is your favorite country, and not a convincing argument for it being objectively the greatest country. Perhaps it's trivial, but statements like yours do nothing to negate the loudmouthed American stereotype. And I bet you don't care.

I'm used to being wrong, but I don't believe it's incumbent upon the prejudged to change the mind of a person willing to stereotype others. The holder of the bias is responsible for his/her own shortcomings.

So yeah. I can't and won't speak for Corso, but count me among those who don't care. A person may judge me according to preconceived notions if he/she wishes. It's their loss.

[Corso]

I appreciate that reply. I love a lot of those things too. But these are all reasons that this is your favorite country, and not a convincing argument for it being objectively the greatest country. Perhaps it's trivial, but statements like yours do nothing to negate the loudmouthed American stereotype. And I bet you don't care.

I was asked directly why I (capital I) think the United States of America is the greatest country. So I answered.

Who said I was trying to make a "convincing argument"?

If you want to, be my guest and jump right in and tell us what you love about this country. I promise not to criticize your opinion.

Shall we all rattle off stereotypes of people from countries around the globe? It will get ugly REAL FAST. But sure, it's fine to say "Loudmouthed American"...

[lumpy]

Donald J. Trump, President of the United States of America.

Say what you will about "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation", at least it's an ethos.

[BBB]

Donald J. Trump, President of the United States of America.

At least you have a sense of humour!

[BBB]

Why don't we take a break and continue after the US takes over Venezuela? I can't wait for lower gas prices. Or will Russia beat us to it?

Rob, being from Australia, is your gene pool from the Indigenous People or those empire seeking Europeans? You know, a powerful nations (Britain and France I believe) who strongly influences a weaker nation by force and government? Without such an invasion, ultimately, after several generations- you Rob, may not even be walking the planet?

But I don't really know Australian history that well. Nor will I assume I could educate an Australian on his or her own country.

But from all I've heard, It's a really nice place. It's on my list to visit.

Well...the British settled/colonised/invaded Australia.

I imagine with a surname like Cigolini, Rob's family came to Australia from Europe (Italy) following the second world war (which we fought in and apparently won, though I'm not sure we make claims of greatness as a result).

I don't really understand the not walking the planet part.

[ABiCi]

Why don't we take a break and continue after the US takes over Venezuela? I can't wait for lower gas prices. Or will Russia beat us to it?

Rob, being from Australia, is your gene pool from the Indigenous People or those empire seeking Europeans? You know, a powerful nations (Britain and France I believe) who strongly influences a weaker nation by force and government? Without such an invasion, ultimately, after several generations- you Rob, may not even be walking the planet?

But I don't really know Australian history that well. Nor will I assume I could educate an Australian on his or her own country.

But from all I've heard, It's a really nice place. It's on my list to visit.

My surname is a bit of a giveaway for my gene pool. My family's story actually involves freedom and opportunity provided by the US. My grandfather was an orphan, a peasant in southern Italy. As the US liberated the country he rode the wave up to Rome, literally on the roof of a train. He ended up working in the US military laundry in Rome. He got his first pair of shoes in his life while working there, a gift from a black American GI. He was 16. Ultimately he was able to scrounge together enough money to get out of war-ravaged Europe and got to Australia in the 50s. By that point the empire seeking Europeans were pretty well established.

So, indeed, I would not exist were it not for British imperialism but indeed also for US military intervention against fascism. Does the fact that my existence relies upon these things mean that I must accept them as necessarily and unquestionably being good things?

I don't have such a high opinion of myself to think that I am an end that has justified all of the means that have given me the particularly privileged life that I lead.

I acknowledge the history of the country of my birth, Australia. It is in many ways a shameful history. The Australian aboriginal population was massacred, children were stolen from their families well in to the 20th century. It was only in the 1960s, after my grandfather had made it to Australia and become a citizen himself, that aboriginal Australian were even able to become citizens of the land which their people had lived on for tens of thousands of years. As a nation we are yet to properly reconcile with this past.

I would also be the first to acknowledge the many faults of my country's present too. Australia regularly featured highly in all of those earlier surveys that I linked to when it came to the most free countries of the world, but I'm all to well aware of how much better a country it could be. Part of my decision to move away was that I was involved in work that was trying to make it better (shifting to more sustainable forms of transport) and was frustrated by the lack of progress, or in some cases regress, that I was facing. I got burnt out and I needed to get away.

I think Australia has got a lot of things right that the US has not and it would be a good idea for the US to emulate us (such as our electoral system which I highlighted in the other politics thread going on at the moment, our public health system, our public education and university system, our gun control policies...), but none of these things are unique to our country. I look to other countries (such as my current home Germany) and I see them pursuing much more generous humanitarian policies, much more progressive and trail blazing environmental and energy policies, and I know that there is no reason why Australia could not be doing so much better for Australians and for the rest of the world than we have been.

You may think I have harsh opinions about the US, but I am no doubt harsher in my judgment of Australia. I am generally repulsed by patriotism, but I am inclined to say that the only form of it that I think I could abide by would be to understand it as the impetus to hold your own country to the highest standards possible. Unfortunately I don't find this to be the usual way patriotism manifests itself - it tends towards the opposite, more an ignorant pride, blind to such failings.

It isn't so surprising that you wouldn't be too familiar with Australian history. In general Australians would know much more about the US than you would know about us - from the Revolution of Independence to the World Wars, the Cold War and its ultimate collapse the US has shaped the course of the last few centuries more than any other single country, so Australians study your country's history from primary school. I ended up with a focus on history in high school, and took university history courses on my way to a degree with a political science major, then I was the TA on an undergraduate International Relations course while I was doing research work... so I suspect I know a fair bit more about US history than many Americans. A bird is not an ornithologist. Just because I'm not from the US doesn't mean I'm not well versed in its history. Australia is at most a middle power in world affairs, it justifiably wouldn't feature too highly in your country's school curriculum.

For all that I despair for it, Australia is a beautiful and varied country, it is a vibrant and well-functioning multicultural mixing pot, safe, prosperous... there are certainly worse places to visit or indeed live.