Automobiles

[Dave Thompson]

Agree. Vastly overstyled. When are US makers learn that less can be more.

[rwsaunders]

Agreed Dave...IMHO, this ’57 Triumph TR-3 and ‘57 Jaguar XK 140MC just bleed style, grace and elegance. Both of these folks are always at the local shows and the owners of the Jag bought it new while in England on vacation in 1957. I always ask the owner of the Jag...”remember me from the last ten Gran Prix’s? I’m the guy that drools when I get near your car. Would you consider naming me in your will as the future owner?”...who knows?

[jerk]

i was waiting today at the fashion valley mall to get my iPhone fixed and had a couple of hours to kill- so i took the opportunity to test drive a Tesla. I was really really impressed. The car accelerated really well- actually handled ok- and i was blown away by the tech. the whole thing was intuitive- really well thought out- and all the automatic stuff worked flawlessly. little things were really impressive- like you can leave the climate control on for your dog and the giant screen shows a happy dog and says something to the effect of, "don't worry about me- it's 70 degrees in here and my owner will be back soon!"...

the base model for 34k is actually a nice value for a car. i don't think i'd ever own one- because it doesn't really satisfy the visceral and dumb parts of cars that i love- but honestly i think if you're not a complete nerd- and you actually want the best form of transportation for how people actually use cars- i look at people on their phones- dicing with navigation and stuff- and the way the Tesla makes it easy to do all the required tech, phone, music, cameras, cop alerts. nav and all the other bullshit that constitute modern driving- i don't think there is a better car than these Teslas. I never thought i'd be impressed with them but i really was.

if you get more excited about the latest iPhone than the latest LS v-8- this is the car for you. the automatic driving technology coupled with the infotainment system would actually make sitting in california traffic jams enjoyable.

even though it goes like hell- and doesn't handle half bad- it isn't an enthusiast vehicle- but it is kinda the perfect car to lease (notice i didn't say own- i think the technology is advancing too quickly to buy one but the lease deals make sense) for someone who wants to get to and from work in comfort and lower their stress levels and carbon foot print.

[jerk]

Agree. Vastly overstyled. When are US makers learn that less can be more.

i think it looks pretty balanced and the proportions are good. given modern requirements- it's not really fair to compare this thing to cars from the 1960s and 1970s. GM has had some dogs lately in terms of their performance cars. the Camaro is a wonderful car- but you literally can't see out of the thing. mechanically- you'd be hard pressed to find a better driving sedan than the late Chevy SS and the thing just looked so awful no one ever bought them. Dodge's challenger looks great- the new mustangs are a little too aston martin looking for me- but it's a good looking car. i can't think of a GM car that I think looks good...

other than that new Vette. They did a good job with it I think. the mid forward cockpit looks good- the tail isn't a forgotten piece- and the whole thing to me wrks together as a cohesive unit. it's also unmistakably a Corvette. Also the price for what you get is amazing. I for one like the driver focused cockpit and the open green house.

anyway- i wonder what other sports cars you guys think look better. my favorite car ever has always been the 911- and to me the new ones look kind of bloated especially when they don't have the aero trim. the current Ferraris are lacking a certain iconic togetherness that the best ferraris always had- and the latest Lambos just look like Lambos. The Ford GT is a great looking car- the latest Mclarens and Aston-Martins look ok to me- but I like that Vette better.

To eachs' own I guess! Sign me up for a white one with red interior though... :)

[Lionel]

i was waiting today at the fashion valley mall to get my iPhone fixed and had a couple of hours to kill- so i took the opportunity to test drive a Tesla. I was really really impressed. The car accelerated really well- actually handled ok- and i was blown away by the tech. the whole thing was intuitive- really well thought out- and all the automatic stuff worked flawlessly. little things were really impressive- like you can leave the climate control on for your dog and the giant screen shows a happy dog and says something to the effect of, "don't worry about me- it's 70 degrees in here and my owner will be back soon!"...

the base model for 34k is actually a nice value for a car. i don't think i'd ever own one- because it doesn't really satisfy the visceral and dumb parts of cars that i love- but honestly i think if you're not a complete nerd- and you actually want the best form of transportation for how people actually use cars- i look at people on their phones- dicing with navigation and stuff- and the way the Tesla makes it easy to do all the required tech, phone, music, cameras, cop alerts. nav and all the other bullshit that constitute modern driving- i don't think there is a better car than these Teslas. I never thought i'd be impressed with them but i really was.

if you get more excited about the latest iPhone than the latest LS v-8- this is the car for you. the automatic driving technology coupled with the infotainment system would actually make sitting in california traffic jams enjoyable.

even though it goes like hell- and doesn't handle half bad- it isn't an enthusiast vehicle- but it is kinda the perfect car to lease (notice i didn't say own- i think the technology is advancing too quickly to buy one but the lease deals make sense) for someone who wants to get to and from work in comfort and lower their stress levels and carbon foot print.

I find that model 3 so incredibly ugly, this car looked outdate the minute it came out. Yes I drove one. No I do not like it. As for the inside tech, yeah, meh.

[jerk]

I find that model 3 so incredibly ugly, this car looked outdate the minute it came out. Yes I drove one. No I do not like it. As for the inside tech, yeah, meh.

i think it's kind of like a touring bike. if you compare it to a road bike it's horrible. ugly, heavy, stupid, torture etc. etc. if you compare it to other ways to carry yourself plus a hundred pounds of shit under your own power- a touring bike all go a sudden seems awesome.

the model three isn't an enthusiast's car. it's transportation- and it's really good transportation.

i guess what i'm saying without saying it- is its an awesome car for people who hate cars. like i said- i'd never own one....but then again i consider automatic transmissions a minus mark on a car and i have roll bars and kirkey race seats in a daily driver. you bought a used gt3- we're not the market for this thing Lionel- i don't even think we're the market for the new roadster they're coming out with despite its 0-60 in 1.9 seconds.

i mean- i just bought a v-rod drag bike with a 100hp shot of nitrous and an air shift kit. my idea of transportation has nothing to do with any of the great things about the Tesla.. i'm the guy who wishes his cars came with a radio delete as an option...so the giant infotainment stuff and how easy it is to drive while navigating and texting is kind of lost on me- but for most people i think its a pretty perfect car.

i don't really think its that ugly. its a little boring- but i like the way it doesn't have a front grill and the sight lines in the car are really good.

[Lionel]

i think it's kind of like a touring bike. if you compare it to a road bike it's horrible. ugly, heavy, stupid, torture etc. etc. if you compare it to other ways to carry yourself plus a hundred pounds of shit under your own power- a touring bike all go a sudden seems awesome.

the model three isn't an enthusiast's car. it's transportation- and it's really good transportation.

i guess what i'm saying without saying it- is its an awesome car for people who hate cars. like i said- i'd never own one....but then again i consider automatic transmissions a minus mark on a car and i have roll bars and kirkey race seats in a daily driver. you bought a used gt3- we're not the market for this thing Lionel- i don't even think we're the market for the new roadster they're coming out with despite its 0-60 in 1.9 seconds.

i mean- i just bought a v-rod drag bike with a 100hp shot of nitrous and an air shift kit. my idea of transportation has nothing to do with any of the great things about the Tesla.. i'm the guy who wishes his cars came with a radio delete as an option...so the giant infotainment stuff and how easy it is to drive while navigating and texting is kind of lost on me- but for most people i think its a pretty perfect car.

i don't really think its that ugly. its a little boring- but i like the way it doesn't have a front grill and the sight lines in the car are really good.

I am certainly not in the market for a model 3, a roadster a Taycan or a rando bike for that matter.

I agree that this is a car for people who do not like cars.

[sk_tle]

I wouldn't say it is ugly but the Model 3 look like an old Hyundai that tried too hard to look like an aston martin.

It's looks compact on picture but really is a big car (from an european perspective) and the price is simply too high. It is priced like a premium car but has crappy interior materials. It is mechanically sound though. I also hate the fact it has a giant TV in the middle of the cockpit. People should look at the road and not at a screen.

[slwrnu]

it is strange that using your phone while driving is a criminal offence, but the manufacturers of cars put more and more stuff on the dashboard which require you to take your eyes off the road.

[sk_tle]

The term infotainment is a farce. They added the word info to disguise what it really is.

[Lionel]

The only thing you need on the dash is a big tach with the red zone clearly visible.... oh wait, wrong car.

[davids]

There's so many Model 3s in my 'hood now. Someone compared their looks to a frog and now that's all I can see. Blue frog, grey frog, black frog...

However.

I think Craig's mostly correct (as per usual) and now that my driving requirements include less & less long-distance driving I can imagine myself in an electric.
Maybe.
I'd still rather have an AllRoad for $50k.

My biggest concern with Tesla is their ongoing product development. I look at the established car companies and, although they're still playing catch-up, once they hit their stride with electric propulsion they're going to have the ongoing capacity to quickly outstrip Tesla. I don't see new products and innovations in the Tesla pipeline.

[Matthew Strongin]

it is strange that using your phone while driving is a criminal offence, but the manufacturers of cars put more and more stuff on the dashboard which require you to take your eyes off the road.

This. This x 1,000.

My biggest concern with Tesla is their ongoing product development. I look at the established car companies and, although they're still playing catch-up, once they hit their stride with electric propulsion they're going to have the ongoing capacity to quickly outstrip Tesla. I don't see new products and innovations in the Tesla pipeline.

Also, this. When real car companies catch up, they'll put Tesla to shame when it comes to building a quality car.

i think it looks pretty balanced and the proportions are good. given modern requirements- it's not really fair to compare this thing to cars from the 1960s and 1970s. GM has had some dogs lately in terms of their performance cars. the Camaro is a wonderful car- but you literally can't see out of the thing. mechanically- you'd be hard pressed to find a better driving sedan than the late Chevy SS and the thing just looked so awful no one ever bought them. Dodge's challenger looks great- the new mustangs are a little too aston martin looking for me- but it's a good looking car. i can't think of a GM car that I think looks good...

other than that new Vette. They did a good job with it I think. the mid forward cockpit looks good- the tail isn't a forgotten piece- and the whole thing to me wrks together as a cohesive unit. it's also unmistakably a Corvette. Also the price for what you get is amazing. I for one like the driver focused cockpit and the open green house.

anyway- i wonder what other sports cars you guys think look better. my favorite car ever has always been the 911- and to me the new ones look kind of bloated especially when they don't have the aero trim. the current Ferraris are lacking a certain iconic togetherness that the best ferraris always had- and the latest Lambos just look like Lambos. The Ford GT is a great looking car- the latest Mclarens and Aston-Martins look ok to me- but I like that Vette better.

To eachs' own I guess! Sign me up for a white one with red interior though... :)

And, lastly, this. The new 'Vette looks rad. It's very heavily styled, but most Corvettes are. And it looks to be a great bang for the buck. The only real miss, IMO, is the lack of a true manual. I might even consider one for a totally irrational car purchase (when does the mid-life crisis start?), but not without a manual. Maybe I should try to find a more subtle model year that surely comes in stick. Something like this...

[Saab2000]

Tesla offers some things others don't yet have, including their Supercharger network.

I'd like to see an industry standard on charging but right now Tesla seems to have done their homework on the logistics of these cars. While others may have more resources, I think Tesla must hold some very valuable patents. It wouldn't surprise me to see them bought at some point though their market valuation at the moment is very high, making this a tough sell.

Audi is introducing some electric vehicles which look sharp and I've actually seen a few e-trons in the wild.

As to the Corvette, it is quite intriguing actually. It's overstyled, but all Corvettes always have been. I'm also dismayed at the lack of a manual transmission but the dual clutch shifts so much faster in the real world. There's no comparison really. It will be interesting when these start getting actual independent reviews and hitting the streets with actual, paying customers. I'm concerned that with such a "low" base price they will skimp on interior quality, which has long been one of GM's weak points.

[AngryScientist]

I'm also dismayed at the lack of a manual transmission but the dual clutch shifts so much faster in the real world. There's no comparison really.

the thing is though, for most people who will buy these cars, they are just toys to play with on the weekend or go for spirited drives along the coast, etc. Very few of these will race or daily commute, and for a play car, i want the row-your-own trans. it's just more engaging for a high powered toy, they should have kept a true manual, and added the DSG as a "race" package or some such. (IMO).

[DOOFUS]

The only thing you need on the dash is a big tach with the red zone clearly visible.... oh wait, wrong car.

It's a rare day when I'm on the same page with Lionel, but I can get behind this.

Well, I'd say you need a tach, a speedo, a gas gauge, and a thermostat. fuck everything else -- and the "infotainment" clusters are horrid. The main thing they accomplish is to increase the odds that somebody hits me on a training ride.

[dgaddis]

the thing is though, for most people who will buy these cars, they are just toys to play with on the weekend or go for spirited drives along the coast, etc. Very few of these will race or daily commute, and for a play car, i want the row-your-own trans. it's just more engaging for a high powered toy, they should have kept a true manual, and added the DSG as a "race" package or some such. (IMO).

Not true. *Most* of the people buying these things will want a slushbox. Most will never get driven really hard or near it's limits or on a track.

For the 2016 model year Corvettes 77% of buyers opt'd for an automatic.

The 2018 models, 78% were automatics.

Most people buy sports cars to impress other people IMO.

[zachateseverything]

Not true. *Most* of the people buying these things will want a slushbox. Most will never get driven really hard or near it's limits or on a track.

For the 2016 model year Corvettes 77% of buyers opt'd for an automatic.

The 2018 models, 78% were automatics.

Most people buy sports cars to impress other people IMO.

Most corvettes sold are auto and most of the competitor products aren't offered in a manual transmission either. Besides, in the C7 the auto was faster as far as magazine times are concerned. The only reasons to opt for the manual are if you're racing the thing hard and need the longevity of a manual trans or if you just really, really want a slower car that you shift yourself.

[zachateseverything]

There's so many Model 3s in my 'hood now. Someone compared their looks to a frog and now that's all I can see. Blue frog, grey frog, black frog...

However.

I think Craig's mostly correct (as per usual) and now that my driving requirements include less & less long-distance driving I can imagine myself in an electric.
Maybe.
I'd still rather have an AllRoad for $50k.

My biggest concern with Tesla is their ongoing product development. I look at the established car companies and, although they're still playing catch-up, once they hit their stride with electric propulsion they're going to have the ongoing capacity to quickly outstrip Tesla. I don't see new products and innovations in the Tesla pipeline.

Electric car tech itself isn't all that complex. Tesla isn't sitting on anything particularly unique IP wise. The engineering challenge is in driving down the manufacturing cost of the battery pack. Tesla actually got beat to market for the $35k electric car with 200+ miles of range by the Chevy Bolt.

Tesla has three things working in their favor (but huge headwinds working against long term success). First, their marketing is pretty solid. They've been able to establish the first new American luxury brand in damn near a century. They also have managed to convince people that a lot of their tech is significantly better than it is. Their autopilot claims are straight up lying.

Second, they've got that network of fast chargers. I live in a single car household. I bought a plug-in hybrid because I want an EV but I take semi-frequent trips of over 200 miles. The charging network for Tesla makes that possible for people willing to pay their premium over other options.

Third, the gigafactory will enable them to transform into a tier-1 supply of batteries once EV demand increases.

but they do face significant challenges. Their focus right now is on getting the Model Y and the new Roadster out the door, but the Model S and X are starting to look old and won't hold up well to new entrants in the luxury EV market.

demand for the Model 3 has slipped in the past few months. They shipped a lot of pre-ordered cars but it's tapered back from there. The federal EV credit drying up is also hurting demand.

some of the Tesla's I've seen have build quality issues that would even make a 90's korean car blush.

finally, Tesla are going to start seeing serious challenges from more established players. GM, Ford, Mercedes, and VW are going to be swinging hard in the next couple years.

[zachateseverything]

That is a German-engineered and manufactured Opel. It is not your father's Buick. A few pages back I was mocked for touting this car but I think it would be a very nice option for a lot of folks.

I like the liftback version. Very similar to the Audi A5 or VW Arteon. It's a near-wagon in a sedan shape. If I weren't overstretched on a lot of things and if I hadn't foolishly purchased my Tiguan last year this would be a car I would actually go look at.

It's German manufactured and styled. The platform engineering is American though (same platform as a Chevy Malibu). I test drove one back in December (GM was throwing like $7k of incentives at them). It was a good car but the dealer didn't want to meet my price. I ended up scoring a Chevy Volt instead.