Caroline Kennedy --- 2020

[ABiCi]

Yes, I definitely need meat & alcohol to ride my bike.

Be careful what you offer, I travel & I like yoga classes...especially free ones.

It will be great, you can concede you lost this argument in person, everyone will be happy.

[Dallas Tex]

It will be great, you can concede you lost this argument in person, everyone will be happy.

The hallucinogens must be good in Germany.

[ABiCi]

The hallucinogens must be good in Germany.

They are, and cheaper too, or so I am told. But I think it is pretty clear to everyone that you and Corso have just engaged in a large deflection because you have raised the white flag.

[Dallas Tex]

They are, and cheaper too, or so I am told. But I think it is pretty clear to everyone that you and Corso have just engaged in a large deflection because you have raised the white flag.

You are misinterpreting the intentions of folks trying to be nice and ending things on a positive note as ‘raising the white flag’.

This place is more or less a dysfunctional family and the same folks have been arguing similar topics for years. At the end, it’s all good.

If you need to get in the last word, go ahead, it’s all yours.

[ABiCi]

You are misinterpreting the intentions of folks trying to be nice and ending things on a positive note as ‘raising the white flag’.

This place is more or less a dysfunctional family and the same folks have been arguing similar topics for years. At the end, it’s all good.

If you need to get in the last word, go ahead, it’s all yours.

I get you are trying to be nice and end things on a positive note... but you are doing that as a face saving exercise, allowing you to extricate yourself from a conversation where you clearly didn't have a leg to stand on.

[Corso]

I get you are trying to be nice and end things on a positive note... but you are doing that as a face saving exercise, allowing you to extricate yourself from a conversation where you clearly didn't have a leg to stand on.

You must be a ton of fun at parties.

Are you trying to come out of this as the "winner", as in a show of power, as in exactly what you charge the United States with?

Time to let it go.

[Cookietruck]

keep it going, quite a nice read...

[ABiCi]

You must be a ton of fun at parties.

Are you trying to come out of this as the "winner", as in a show of power, as in exactly what you charge the United States with?

Time to let it go.

I'm just trying to elicit some evidence of learning from you, but that is clearly too much to expect. When no amount of evidence to the contrary can over turn your gut feel opinions, you've got a bit of a problem. I guess it isn't the American way to ever acknowledge you are wrong?

Glen repeatedly labelled my posts here bullshit, you called me a liar. When presented with a pile of evidence that what I was saying wasn't bullshit or lies neither of you saw fit to respond anything to counter that and just changed tried to change the topic and have tried to paint me as rude of unreasonable.

If you want to think the problematic conversationalist here is me you are certainly free to do so but, as seems to be the modus operandi for you guys, its an opinion you are going to have to hold in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[BBB]

I think my transplanted Australian colleague is being much, much too harsh...

You chaps did bring us Star Wars, Good Fellas and the special effects in T2. So, there is that.

Now just get rid of Trump. That would be impressive. Most impressive.

[ides1056]

I watched the debates, expecting at any moment his head would detonate like John Cassavetes' at the end of the Brian de Palma film, The Fury.

Who knew Amy Irving had mad skills?

[Corso]

I'm just trying to elicit some evidence of learning from you, but that is clearly too much to expect. When no amount of evidence to the contrary can over turn your gut feel opinions, you've got a bit of a problem. I guess it isn't the American way to ever acknowledge you are wrong?

Glen repeatedly labelled my posts here bullshit, you called me a liar. When presented with a pile of evidence that what I was saying wasn't bullshit or lies neither of you saw fit to respond anything to counter that and just changed tried to change the topic and have tried to paint me as rude of unreasonable.

If you want to think the problematic conversationalist here is me you are certainly free to do so but, as seems to be the modus operandi for you guys, its an opinion you are going to have to hold in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

You started this with the following: "The US is the lesser of two evils when it comes to a world order dominated by Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. We may even wish for the good old days when our new Chinese overlords are holding sway. Still, the lesser of two evils is still an evil..."

Hard fact? No. Your opinion. Nothing more. Maybe shared by the folks in your yoga class, but hardly proven fact.

To defend your opinion, you shotgunned numerous large charges that each could take weeks of hard research to prove, disprove, and unless you have access to the CIA's files, I'm sorry but the entire truth will continue to be unknown. Not by any of us.

So, whatever "evidence" you think you have, you may be simply naive to how the big game is really played.

It's amusing to me, that you live in a country that, if not for US involvement, everyone surrounding you may be speaking Russian. Not saying that would be "bad", but I doubt it would be as nice as it is now.

Daltex and I were indeed trying to close this no-win conversation (for anyone) to move on, but something in you just won't let it end.

"Rude and unreasonable"...I believe you've self described pretty well.

[BBB]

To defend your opinion, you shotgunned numerous large charges that each could take weeks of hard research to prove, disprove, and unless you have access to the CIA's files, I'm sorry but the entire truth will continue to be unknown. Not by any of us.

So, whatever "evidence" you think you have, you may be simply naive to how the big game is really played.

It's amusing to me, that you live in a country that, if not for US involvement, everyone surrounding you may be speaking Russian. Not saying that would be "bad", but I doubt it would be as nice as it is now.

I'm not so sure that some of the charges would take weeks of hard research to prove, disprove.

Here's something on the Chile example that was raised:

Documenting U.S. Role in Democracy’s Fall and Dictator’s Rise in Chile - The New York Times

From the article:

The National Security Archive donated a selection of 3,000 declassified documents to the museum several years ago, while the State Department provided the Chilean government with copies of the entire collection. Chileans, however, have rarely seen them.

“To see on a piece of paper, for example, the president of the United States ordering the C.I.A. to preemptively overthrow a democratically elected president in Chile is stunning,” Mr. Kornbluh said. “The importance of having these documents in the museum is for the new generations of Chileans to actually see them.”

[ABiCi]

You started this with the following: "The US is the lesser of two evils when it comes to a world order dominated by Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. We may even wish for the good old days when our new Chinese overlords are holding sway. Still, the lesser of two evils is still an evil..."

Hard fact? No. Your opinion. Nothing more. Maybe shared by the folks in your yoga class, but hardly proven fact.

To defend your opinion, you shotgunned numerous large charges that each could take weeks of hard research to prove, disprove, and unless you have access to the CIA's files, I'm sorry but the entire truth will continue to be unknown. Not by any of us.

So, whatever "evidence" you think you have, you may be simply naive to how the big game is really played.

It's amusing to me, that you live in a country that, if not for US involvement, everyone surrounding you may be speaking Russian. Not saying that would be "bad", but I doubt it would be as nice as it is now.

Daltex and I were indeed trying to close this no-win conversation (for anyone) to move on, but something in you just won't let it end.

"Rude and unreasonable"...I believe you've self described pretty well.

Yes, if it wasn't for US involvment in WWII everyone in Berlin would be speaking German or Russian depending on how that turned out. Would it be a better place? No, probably not. I never said it would. As I said, the US has been the lesser of two evils...

The problem here is your willful ignorance of your country's misdeeds around the world over the last century. The evidence is not difficult to find. It is is abundant. BBB just posted about Chile.

There is documentary evidence that the CIA assisted Saddam Hussein gas Iranians (Exclusive: CIA Files Prove America Helped Saddam as He Gassed Iran – Foreign Policy).

That is the Iran of the Shah, the one the CIA had installed after a coup. The funny one about this is that the initial attempted coup looked like it had failed, so a call was made by Washington to pull back the support, only for the local operative on the ground to ignore that instruction. The CIA documents are released on this too (64 Years Later, CIA Finally Releases Details of Iranian Coup – Foreign Policy).

The illegal provision of weapons to Iran, linked to the support of the Contra group in Nicaragua, is very well established, there were multiple investigations which led to indictments, you can find links to all the reports at the wiki page (Iran–Contra affair - Wikipedia).

Here you can read all about the US government ousting a democratically elected socialist government in Guatemala, "following closely on successful operations that installed the Shah as ruler of Iran... an intensive paramilitary and psychological campaign to replace a popular, elected government with a political non-entity". (https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...0000134974.pdf).

There are declassified CIA documents outlining the extent to which the US knew of and supported the Suharto regime's violent murder of up to a million Indonesians, the justification being that he was better than a communist alternative (What the United States Did in Indonesia - The Atlantic).

I'm not sure why I should bother continuing to spoon feed you like this, though. You and Glenn clearly have some pretty fixed ideas and it is unclear if any amount of evidence will ever change your minds. That's the definition of unreasonable.

The is ample evidence that the US has installed, supported, funded, trained and armed regimes on every continent that are responsible for millions of deaths. I'm happy to acknowledge that the US is the lesser evil when compared to the likely alternatives we could have had, but you seem unable to countenance any significant and systematic wrong doing. Why?

There is ample evidence that the US is not the most free country in the world, socially, politically or economically. There is ample evidence that it does not offer the best standard or living or the best chances of social mobility. A variety of sources, even those most inclined towards supporting and promoting the US and its values, all confirm that the US lags behind Europe, Australia, Canada and New Zealand. Glenn is totally unwilling to accept that. Why?

This "why?" is what keeps me posting. It seriously confuses me. Why deny the truth? What is gained by that?

There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

[Corso]

This "why?" is what keeps me posting. It seriously confuses me. Why deny the truth? What is gained by that?

There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

You actually have no idea of what I know or what I believe, or what I'm willing to accept. You assume you know more than I do about such matters. I could post "data" after "data", and just because I did, would that make it fact?

Did you actually read my earleir replies? where I said "we did some bad things and will most likely continue to do so"?

Is it because I don't say "ok-you win" that makes you so crazy?

One thing is true: I'm proud to live in the greatest country in the world. Period. I'll continue to vote, pay taxes, and actually LIVE here. You can continue to live outside of the country you're seemingly so obsessed with.

Like a dog who won't let go of a bone, even though your'e playing in the middle of the autobahn. And I'm "unreasonable"?

[ABiCi]

You actually have no idea of what I know or what I believe, or what I'm willing to accept. You assume you know more than I do about such matters. I could post "data" after "data", and just because I did, would that make it fact?

Did you actually read my earleir replies? where I said "we did some bad things and will most likely continue to do so"?

Is it because I don't say "ok-you win" that makes you so crazy?

One thing is true: I'm proud to live in the greatest country in the world. Period. I'll continue to vote, pay taxes, and actually LIVE here. You can continue to live outside of the country you're seemingly so obsessed with.

Like a dog who won't let go of a bone, even though your'e playing in the middle of the autobahn. And I'm "unreasonable"?

So first I was a liar and now I'm crazy?

I think my response has been pretty measured considering the way you and Glenn have conducted yourself.

I'm being persistent, certainly. I'm not going to be called a liar or someone who has fabricated a story without providing evidence that the claims I make are true. I'm not going to allow you and Glenn to make blatantly false accusations and statements without proving that you are wrong. I'm not going to let you try and walk away from those statements without any sort of accountability behind a veneer of false friendliness. It's dishonest and I think as we are all adults here we can do better than that.

In this conversation between Glenn, yourself and I only one element has been producing data and evidence. You guys could have provided some data. But you didn't. Maybe it is because there isn't any data that says that the US is the greatest country in the world? Maybe that is because it is not? Your pride is misplaced.

Like I said before, the reason I am persistent about this is that this is not simply an issue of being right or wrong. It has consequences in the real world. This false sense of the US's greatness is at the foundation of so much of the wrongs that the US commits abroad and the wrongs that it commits at home.

[vertical_doug]

I'm not so sure that some of the charges would take weeks of hard research to prove, disprove.

Here's something on the Chile example that was raised:

Documenting U.S. Role in Democracy’s Fall and Dictator’s Rise in Chile - The New York Times

From the article:

The National Security Archive donated a selection of 3,000 declassified documents to the museum several years ago, while the State Department provided the Chilean government with copies of the entire collection. Chileans, however, have rarely seen them.

“To see on a piece of paper, for example, the president of the United States ordering the C.I.A. to preemptively overthrow a democratically elected president in Chile is stunning,” Mr. Kornbluh said. “The importance of having these documents in the museum is for the new generations of Chileans to actually see them.”

Not that different than 1953 Coup in Iran- Operation Ajax. This was more a joint US/UK effort. If this did not happen, it is doubtful the Iranian Revolution would have happened, and Iran may be a very different country than it is now.

[ides1056]

re: being called a liar

an aunt of mine recently suggested I had stolen something from her and lied about it- the backstory is way too complicated

my response was this:

" the lifetime of bile that has pumped through what passes for a heart in you has addled your brain"

I've been paying attention for my 62 years, and nothing Rob has posted is news to me. There isn't enough time in eternity to atone for the sins my country has committed. I live here, and I vote, but don't expect me to wag my finger in the air shouting "we're number one."

I had a neighbor who died a few years ago. He did four years in the Marine Corps in WW2. Turned nineteen at Iwo Jima. He and I had no political differences. He would not have disagreed with the criticism leveled here at our country.

As for Iran and our involvement: a democratically elected government was overthrown. As in Guatemala. Emphasis on Democratic.

And they are blamed for showing up on our borders years later, their countries labelled shithole by that fool in the White House.

[Corso]

So first I was a liar and now I'm crazy?

I just re-read my post from the point of you starting this debate, and not once did I call you a liar. Please show me where I did. I believe you believe the stuff you have read.

I don't know what arguments you are having in your head, but don't make false accusations.

I hate to disappoint you, but you are not teaching me anything I didn't already know. I'm not one to stay up at night worrying about the sins of the past, something I did not have anything to do with.

Certain things our Country did bothers the hell out of me, most happened before I was born. Nothing you or I can do about them.

"This false sense of the US's greatness is at the foundation of so much of the wrongs that the US commits abroad and the wrongs that it commits at home."

Your quote above is your opinion. Not Fact. There is a difference you seem to be wrestling with.

[bcm119]

Corso, in your opinion, what makes the US the "greatest country in the world"? I'm always curious how people come to believe that. It just sounds so arrogant, esp. when written on a board with an international audience.

[Corso]

Corso, in your opinion, what makes the US the "greatest country in the world"? I'm always curious how people come to believe that. It just sounds so arrogant, esp. when written on a board with an international audience.

I'll answer, and my opinion is not open to debate: Yeah, it is arrogant I suppose. But if I don't believe in my country, why would I live & raise my family here?

For a relatively young nation, we have risen to the top quickly-compared to other older countries. Our Constitution and the freedoms it provides. The Civil War didn't destroy us. We ended 2 world wars we did not start. We helped rebuild the countries we helped defeat in WW2. The Wright Brothers. P-51's, F-16s, SR-71 Blackbird. We were the first on the moon. We have enjoyed freedoms that some countries just have begun to exercise. Big Star. Highways, electricity, indoor plumbing, cable & satellite Television. We are the first country other countries come to when they need help. Boston Medical Centers and medical research & discoveries. IBM. The Grand Canyon. The Ivy League and our college system. We are an extremely charitable nation. Johnny Cash. The Smithsonian. The Stock Market. Fender guitars. Without us, NATO and the UN are toothless. Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, The Talking Heads. Chuck Berry. Drag Racing. Late 60s-early 70s Muscle cars. Hollywood. The USS Constitution. All handmade Bicycle craftsmen & women. Route 66. Our often messy, not perfect but still our Political System. I can vote. The Boston Bruins. Jonathan Richman. Freedom of Religion. I can travel freely anywhere in the country, anytime I choose. The coast of Maine, the beauty of Hawaii to Alaska and everything in between. American Football. The Indy 500. Greg LeMond. The PanMass Challenge. Al Gore inventing the internet (sorry-couldn't help myself). Big cities, Small towns. Our military, police & fire fighters. For each state's differences, we can come together when needed. We are (arguably) the Strongest Nation on Earth-and that's an accomplishment.

Are we perfect? Far from it. Are we still the "go to" place when others are in need? I believe so.