The Business End of Things

[ron l edmiston]

[QUOTE=David Tollefson;678705]I bet if we met (and I hope some day we do), we'd both laugh about it over a brew.

But I know that there are really only two things one can effectively teach: (1) This is what I did, do (or don't do) that, or (2) This is what "X" did, do that. But neither of those mean that it is the only way to success. I (hopefully) am not so full of hubris as to think I can just forge my way into the market sans information from those who've gone (and are going) before.

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& i'll set-um-up & buy.., garro too..

ronnie with a smile..

[Rody]

Mark,

There is much written about this topic.

Start here... http://www.framebuilderscollective.o...minar-2011.pdf

I've done lots of posts on the blog about the business of building as well.

here is just one... Groovy Cycleworks 330-988-0537: Food for thought...

What specific questions do you have?

r

[11.4]

I'd never suggest I could build a first frame nor be around to build the hundredth. What I do know is how to start businesses and how to make them successful. So I'd like to offer a riposte to a couple of the comments above.

The gift is something that one can't really teach. That's why there's always a disconnect between what Richard might say and what a newcomer might want. It isn't purely experience. If someone has a gift, it takes you somewhere special and unless you mess up the business side, you can have it made -- both personally and financially.

Then there are those who are master craftsmen, who can produce beautiful frames and understand how to make an owner ecstatic. And there are also those who know how to build and sell a lot of frames and make a profit and are happy doing so. All of these classes of builders are just fine and are part of the continuum.

What one isn't as aware of are all the people who try and fail. If you aren't careless as a craftsman you should be able to make a frame, market it, and make a living. We all know plenty of these people out there. Bike frames aren't rocket science, at least not to make a solid frame with consistent geometry and finish. It seems to me that the people who fail, do so in one of two ways: they simply can't make a go of it and flame out, or worse, they create enough impediments to their success that they simply burn out and quit. The latter are the saddest ones, because there are some good builders in that category.

My point is that I don't quite agree with a few of the opinions above. You have a lot to learn as a builder and if you give away sales and successes for business reasons, that's simply a waste. The builders who did differentiate their bikes and their brands right from the start have built great successes for themselves -- think Richard and Sacha, just to name two obvious cases. They both had a differentiated product right from the start, they both sold quality, and they branded well. And they ran their businesses as if they were going to be a bigger business some day. If you only expect to grow to be mediocre, it isn't worth the investment. But if you believe in yourself and commit to your goals, build to be bigger.

I've seen so many failings. Complacency. Building whatever monstrous geometry the LBS or customer requests (think Serotta). Building frames that look like all the other frames out there, decals be damned. Missing quality or finish, even by a little bit. Not getting your bookkeeping in order and then not being able to fix it when demand takes off. Above all, not differentiating your frames and not differentiating them as to quality. Richard did this from the very beginning and just a red-and-white frame in the distance was enough to catch one's eye. Same for Sacha's humorous "Vanilla" brand -- anything but. Mario Confente set the original example in a time when tubes were hacksawed and finishes were peeling as they left the shop. The better builders today maintain that tradition and each is known for a unique and desirable trait.

I wouldn't critique any builders, nor presume to tell them how to do better. I'd just ask you to consider how not to fail. Miss the simple things and greatness won't be rewarded. it's a complete skill set that makes a successful builder, and that includes the business skills. One doesn't have to obsess over business skills and deliver a substandard frame; one has to excel in both.

[Amaro Bikes]

....The gift is something that one can't really teach.....

I can't see much about gift or not gift, but loads about workbench hours and being related with bikes for long time, knowing about them with big perspective.
Considering it all about the genius gifted craftmanship is more about art and that stuff, and I can see it not helping a lot to make framebuilding seen as what is in reality, far from fantasies.
You have to build your own gift with loads of practice and heritage

....The builders who did differentiate their bikes and their brands right from the start have built great successes for themselves -- think Richard and Sacha, just to name two obvious cases. They both had a differentiated product right from the start, they both sold quality, and they branded well.

None of them started there, this "right from the start" is just the final steps on a long stairway full of practice and training steps at many other workshops, either working for others or on the shadows. Once they got what's needed to be a real deal, they went full on for their own downtube. Same with Dario and many others.
No one started "right from the start" putting any own name anywhere.

Today, it happen to be much the opposite case, first of all prepare your own brand and name on the iconic down tube, then try to find out how to build the rest of tubes.

[Nierman]

snip

that post/advice goes to

11.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

Since it was cited, I'll add editorial comment. The red and white thing began in 1981/1982 and came when Le Coq Sportif gave us team clothing. I decided to match paint jobs to fabric colors. They stayed on board for 1-2 seasons. But the paint scheme endured. It was never the only paint job I offered; all of those in the public domain were ordered that way by the clients. As far as staying the line goes, I did stake a claim in 1978 when I decided to no longer make frames based on client designs, the whims of the press, what some pro purportedly used, or by model year. I defined what I did, offered it, and those who queued up knew. That was, as mentioned, in 1978 when I already had brazed up at least 700 frames.

The point here is that you don't go into this having something in mind, you go into it to be properly reared. Without rearing, you're fukecd. But you can look at a body of work and say, after the fact, that was a good idea. Regardless, you can't and won't do any of this unless you're trained, are relentless about production, and persevere. All the business sense in the world, and media attention, and fans, won't sustain you if you haven't made a lot of bicycles going in. The fallout in this niche since Y2k speaks to this. Framebuilding, thanks to the internet, has become something to fetish over. It's a trade, a job of work (not some creative pursuit), and there are no apps for it.

[11.4]

I can't see much about gift or not gift, but loads about workbench hours and being related with bikes for long time, knowing about them with big perspective.
Considering it all about the genius gifted craftmanship is more about art and that stuff, and I can see it not helping a lot to make framebuilding seen as what is in reality, far from fantasies.
You have to build your own gift with loads of practice and heritage


None of them started there, this "right from the start" is just the final steps on a long stairway full of practice and training steps at many other workshops, either working for others or on the shadows. Once they got what's needed to be a real deal, they went full on for their own downtube. Same with Dario and many others.
No one started "right from the start" putting any own name anywhere.

Today, it happen to be much the opposite case, first of all prepare your own brand and name on the iconic down tube, then try to find out how to build the rest of tubes.

I've owned a Witcomb (I think that was where Richard got some frame building experience?) and I also bought a couple of Richard's early frames. I can tell you that Richard may have learned a lot at Witcomb, but what he produced from the outset under his own name was not remotely a Witcomb. He had a completely different vision for what a bike should be and he made sure that everything surrounding his frame building measured up -- used Joe Bell when most builders wouldn't spend that kind of money on paint, bought the best castparts when they were a good bit more expensive, had a visual aesthetic in his lugs, etc. I'd say the same about the other top builders as well -- unstinted focus on differentiated quality.

I'd entirely agree that there are people who want to start building without any experience. When you ask how the best rise to the top in that crowd, there's the old proverb "live seventy years or live seven years ten times. " Then there's special skill. Then there's simply the career progression that they choose to seek (they wanted to learn to weld first, or they wanted to work with Serotta and then went on). Or they simply wanted to make a certain kind of bike they couldn't find and set out to do that.

There have been long discussions about guilds in past years among frame builders. But frame builders are such an ornery bunch -- the nicest of them -- that they may volunteer all kinds of help but I don't see them wanting a guild imposed on them or on anyone. And I suspect that all builders appreciate that a great builder may be matured by a thousand frames while another may be making magnificent frames after the first ten. There's no one pattern. And that's where I come back to my advice -- do it all right, not just the milling and joinery. Get the business right, get the paint right, get the brand right, be sure you're really offering something unique (beyond the decals). All basic business issues. If you are making magnificent frames after the first ten, you better have all the rest of it right. And let's face it, a lot of people shop for bikes over the internet and buy from pretty photos. We don't sell handbuilt frames on their race pedigree or because some pro rides them. Life has changed. You may not sell your first ten if you don't do the rest right and certainly will be trying not to stall out at your first hundred. That would be a travesty if you're really good.

[crumpton]

lets define "a body of work"

[11.4]

lets define "a body of work"

OK. To which end?

Are you defining the lifespan of a major accomplished builder? Or someone with perhaps ten years' building and still getting better? Or a builder with two years and thirty frames built? And a body of work in terms of progression, improvement, excellence? Evolution of a body of work, in other words?

[Mark Kelly]

Mark,

There is much written about this topic.Start here... <snip>

What specific questions do you have?

r

Rody

Thanks for that. Good reading.

It's not so much about specific questions that I want answered as it is about topics I'd like to see covered. Lane has opened up with some good leads and cut through a lot of the blather (much of which I brought on myself by being bumptious at the start: bad move that).

A couple of examples of things I'd like to see discussed: a couple of days ago Richard and I were talking past each other about fitting and how to apportion the costs of same for builders who do it themselves. Part of one of Richard's replies:

Regarding the charging less/more tangent: some folks give you (me) an order and say, "Make this." and wait their turn. Others obsess, and want you to obsess with them along the way. Some choose a paint scheme and leave it there. Others want to discuss color theory or if you can match something to their favorite sweater from high school, and if you can't then why not. Then there's the client who's needy or wants a BFF and becomes an email buddy every week until the commission is filled. You can't, and you don't charge the decisive clients less, and the indecisive ones more, any more than you would if collecting the contact points part of the process took ten minutes as opposed to spending two hours discussing morphological limitations (to make just one example).

I found that fascinating and it raises many questions: how do you deal with the customer who turns into a big timesuck? How do you account for / apportion these costs?

Richard seems to be saying it's all part of the business model, OK I get that, does it have to be? What are the alternatives? Has anyone tried them in practice? How did it go?

Another matter was raised by the incredibly negative commentary on Bike Radar regarding Pedalino. I've already had someone call me a liar in public (or words to that effect). How do you deal with such things? Ignore them and move on? Sink to their level and get beaten by experience?

[Stijl Cycles]

The question is this: What is the #@/?ing rush to get to the market atmo?

That is a huge question that is fraught with all manner of twisty roads, but I think falls somewhere between "act on an idea before someone else has a chance to beat you to it" and the concept of an agile software development where the saying goes: "if you're not embarrassed of your prototype, you're already too late"

How it bled into everything else...?

But, I do think that there is an interesting side effect that we are seeing in the bicycle industry.
I am seeing industry come back to America from Asia because their process is slow enough that they fall behind the trends that are changing faster and faster everyday.

[Tristan]

My two golden nuggets from 9 years selling bicycle wheels:

1) It will take you a lot more time to sell a product than you think. I said sell, not build.

2) It will cost you a lot more to run the business than you think, both in time and money.

You strike me as experienced and intelligent Mark so I'm sure you're going in with your eyes open. That's a big step up over "I became a framebuilder because I couldn't find any other job to do and I love track bikes." You've got a truly unique product which is very rare and if you can find the right way to sell and the right amount to charge I've got no doubts you can give it a solid crack.

[SteveP]

The building the frame part is the least of it.

Not complicated, not difficult

The rest of running a small business is a continual challenge.
Selling, customer service, accounting.
Not easy

Steve Pucci

[Andrew R Stewart]

My two golden nuggets from 9 years selling bicycle wheels:

1) It will take you a lot more time to sell a product than you think. I said sell, not build.

2) It will cost you a lot more to run the business than you think, both in time and money.

You strike me as experienced and intelligent Mark so I'm sure you're going in with your eyes open. That's a big step up over "I became a framebuilder because I couldn't find any other job to do and I love track bikes." You've got a truly unique product which is very rare and if you can find the right way to sell and the right amount to charge I've got no doubts you can give it a solid crack.

I think this is the best reply. Direct to the OP's initial question. True in content, short to read and to the point.

I've read that (and know from other fields I've been in) that how you run your business is every bit as important as to what you make/sell. There are a lot of people who can make a frame. there are only some who can do so and make money, year after year. For many there is a long transition period of their being able to fully fund their life with only building. For many this never happens without help from family, a spouse/partner or being free of having to pay for one's life from the profits of their efforts.

The business plans that you make initially and update annually, the branding you develop to differentiate yourself from all those who are doing what you do, the accounting needs, the customer communication skills, the marketing, the overheads that don't contribute directly to sales or production and more factors all come into play independent of whether some one is god with a torch and file. Andy.

[e-RICHIE]

I found that fascinating and it raises many questions: how do you deal with the customer who turns into a big timesuck? How do you account for / apportion these costs?

I make the bicycle when the order comes up, send it when completed, and then 2-4 weeks later mail an invoice. That's standard fare here atmo.

Richard seems to be saying it's all part of the business model, OK I get that, does it have to be? What are the alternatives? Has anyone tried them in practice? How did it go?

Yes. It's that way. It has to be. Some things have their price. PS No charge for my answering all these questions you have.

Another matter was raised by the incredibly negative commentary on Bike Radar regarding Pedalino. I've already had someone call me a liar in public (or words to that effect). How do you deal with such things? Ignore them and move on? Sink to their level and get beaten by experience?

Is this about you, and how I'd deal with folks on a comment section trashing you? If it's for me, I'd hope I'd have the constitution to ignore it. But whenever I am sucked in, I go straight to the mirror to remind myself who I am, and say, "I stood in for Punky Brewster when all of you was nothing atmo.", and then have a Laphraoig.

[Mark Kelly]

No, Richard, it's not about me or at least it wasn't meant to be.

It was meant to be about getting this community talking about what it's like running a small business. I've been there, I've already sent two of them broke.

My experience running small wineries says that the "neediest" customers are also the most likely to talk about the wonderful experience they had talking to the actual winemaker who showed them around the winery and pulled barrel samples etc etc, so I just count it as part of the deal.

I (mostly) ignore trolls. I used to say that anyone who stands in the cellar door and tells you how to make your wine is either a teacher or a doctor. You can tell the difference by whether they buy anything.

[dgaddis]

A friend posted this on FB and it reminded me of this thread.

6 things you didn’t know about FBM | FBM Bike Co.

[e-RICHIE]

A friend posted this on FB and it reminded me of this thread.

6 things you didn’t know about FBM | FBM Bike Co.

Sounds like life here lately except that Buddy (our Maltese) doesn't work for the police atmo.

[seanile]

much of which I brought on myself by being bumptious at the start: bad move that

wednesday's word of the week?

[cardinal-creative]

6 things you didn’t know about FBM | FBM Bike Co.[/url]

The FBM story fits well into this discussion.