Michael Sam and being gay in the NFL

[Mabouya]

Ever heard of a guy named Lyndon Baines Johnson.

And these days in Texas on a state-wide ballot he would not even be elected dog-catcher.

[joosttx]

And these days in Texas on a state-wide ballot he would not even be elected dog-catcher.

So untrue if you are talking political ideology. Texas was much more conservative back then than now. The joke about LBJ was he was the only Democratic in Blanco county. And to survive that he was a shoe in for President. Now, he was a bully, an asshole, a drinker, ugly and a hot head. Those character flaws are more likely to affect his ability to be successful in the public life today. Also his predilection to hold dogs up by their ears may affect his chance as dog catcher.

I think we all should strive to find transcendent veins that go beyond red and blue. This country and humanity are so much more complex than that. And if we don't we are just narrow minded suckers.

[Tamu8104]

I do admire Michael Sam's courage but I think the reaction is somewhat generational. Personally, as a millennial, this is not a big story among my friends. Most of us have siblings or friends who have been openly gay for a long time and while this is a first for this sport, it doesn't ring as a huge cultural breakthrough.

On the subject of Texas, I think it's regional. My perception is that East Texas is much less progressive then the rest of the state. I don't know Dallas as well but here in ATX, I think it's as progressive if not more then most areas of the US and San Antonio is conservative but still generally accepting.

[ABiCi]

I disagree. See my comments in the Collins thread, which I believe you didn't participate in.

Fair? Definitely is. Collins is out of a job due to lack of talent/age, his peer group is longer a bunch of jocks, he's now working out looking for work for the playoff run. Taking a gentle poke at him while propping Sam I would say is the opposite of unfair. Just because two guys are gay doesn't give them equal standing in the bravery department.

Football has an entirely different subculture and one's sexuality is more strictly defined, the level of Sam's scrutiny in the locker room and in the public will be much more intense.

You could make the argument Collins help pave the way, but my gay friends have long rolled their eyes at the Johnny-come-latelies, having been out for decades. They're the brave ones, trying to be accepted in a traditional workplace, not someone who's left it.

When to come out has been a divisive issue for gays since the days of Harvey Milk. It's a personal choice and everyone has their own tolerance limit. I truly don't see how my viewpoint is unfair (when it's actually the popular sentiment among my friends) nor not useful, it only reflects my personal experience with a very large sample size. Look I've worked in the arts in SF for decades, I don't expect anyone here to understand but type I must.

Your personal experiences and viewpoints may be influenced by your peer groups and media far more than you may think.

To come out requires bravery no matter who you are or in what circumstances you are in.

Sure, there is a scale of bravery, but these guys, or anyone else that comes out for that matter, are so far down one end of the spectrum that I don't see much point making distinctions between them and I think it is counterproductive to criticise or downplay the bravery of anyone that makes the decision to come out. It is easier now than it has been before, but it is still very hard.

Collins can only come out for himself, Sam can only come out for himself. It is unfair to criticise or trivialise one man's decision because of the nature of the other's, and that is definitely how it came across when you said one was "way more" brave.

Both of them should be applauded for their courage. I guess my problem was that it seemed like in order to praise Sam for his bravery you had to knock Collins for lacking it, or at least not demonstrating enough. I don't think that is the kind of message we want to be sent out to people who are in the position of making the decision to come out themselves.

[j44ke]

There is perhaps a counterintuitive conservatism that runs very strongly in the African-American community that emanates from the church. I say counterintuitive only because ethnic politics are almost always assumed to align with liberal causes, and yet in this case, where ethnicity and gender/sexual identity dovetail, there are some very awkward alliances between African-American clergy and congregations and conservative political power brokers. These alliances helped the Bush campaigns in the south, and the Obama campaigns spent a lot of time working to neutralize/appease them (why Obama could only support gay marriage vocally after Biden let the cows out of the barn.) There is a new documentary about this role of the clergy in the political fight for equality called The New Black, directed by Yoruba Richen, which I would recommend seeing if you are at all interested in the topic.

[jitahs]

To come out requires bravery no matter who you are or in what circumstances you are in.

Sure, there is a scale of bravery, but these guys, or anyone else that comes out for that matter, are so far down one end of the spectrum that I don't see much point making distinctions between them and I think it is counterproductive to criticise or downplay the bravery of anyone that makes the decision to come out. It is easier now than it has been before, but it is still very hard.

Collins can only come out for himself, Sam can only come out for himself. It is unfair to criticise or trivialise one man's decision because of the nature of the other's, and that is definitely how it came across when you said one was "way more" brave.

Both of them should be applauded for their courage. I guess my problem was that it seemed like in order to praise Sam for his bravery you had to knock Collins for lacking it, or at least not demonstrating enough. I don't think that is the kind of message we want to be sent out to people who are in the position of making the decision to come out themselves.

I don't care. Really don't.

[cdickens]

No matter what the circumstances im sure it is a tough thing for him or anyone to do. So good for him. It's too bad something as trivial as someones sexual preference is such a big deal.
My 2¢

[boxerboxer]

This guy has a huge motor, apparently. If he works hard and produces being gay won't enter the picture. If injured, complaining or lazy it will.

bahahahahahahahahahahahaha "won't enter the picture".. Pick up a newspaper when you return from whatever alternate universe you're visiting.

[jitahs]

bahahahahahahahahahahahaha "won't enter the picture".. Pick up a newspaper when you return from whatever alternate universe you're visiting.

No one cares if you win. BTW you forgot to comprehend my other post. Sensing a theme here.

Here, allow me to spoon feed you guys yet again:

San Francisco 49ers – Niner Insider Blog » Kaepernick on Michael Sam: ‘No one cares if you’re black, white, straight, gay’



Damn you guys are boring.

[Crashburn]

No one cares if you win. BTW you forgot to comprehend my other post. Sensing a theme here.

Here, allow me to spoon feed you guys yet again:

San Francisco 49ers – Niner Insider Blog » Kaepernick on Michael Sam: ‘No one cares if you’re black, white, straight, gay’



Damn you guys are boring.

Colin Kaepernick has as much say regarding personnel decisions as you or I do so while it's good to see the team QB state he doesn't care about Sam's sexuality
until a team GM says the same thing publicly boxerboxer's point stands.

[boxerboxer]

No one cares if you win. BTW you forgot to comprehend my other post. Sensing a theme here.

Here, allow me to spoon feed you guys yet again:

San Francisco 49ers – Niner Insider Blog » Kaepernick on Michael Sam: ‘No one cares if you’re black, white, straight, gay’



Damn you guys are boring.

It was because I read the thread that I thought it was weird you would say that. Earlier you said, unqualified with regard to Sam's performance, that

football has an entirely different subculture and one's sexuality is more strictly defined, the level of Sam's scrutiny in the locker room and in the public will be much more intense.

Then you say it will only be an issue if he plays badly or is injured. It's what I'm hoping, but there are plenty of valid reasons to question the idea, based on things players have said publicly and by virtue of the fact that the NFL draws a majority of it's players from a country who has a poor track record when it comes to equality for and acceptance of homosexuality. The Kaepernick soundbyte (and the support from players and fans) is great, but it doesn't erase the possibility of things going badly.

There's no comprehension problem, I just don't agree with you.

[jitahs]

Colin Kaepernick has as much say regarding personnel decisions as you or I do so while it's good to see the team QB state he doesn't care about Sam's sexuality
until a team GM says the same thing publicly boxerboxer's point stands.

Drafting Sam is a public endorsement of his football talents; a GM putting his neck out on the line publicly proclaiming gay players are welcome is suicide by PR, outside of the Bay Area. Maybe even within.

As an example of political expedience, a former All Pro qb has been widely known as being gay by the gay community. It's the don't ask don't tell policy applied.

His point is spurious: being gay won't come up in the locker room if he's good and an alpha, any more than being light-skinned, mix-raced or educated would. I'll acknowledge he's a bad fit for a redneck team, but a good fit for a team that drafts for a combination of need, talent and character. What y'all are talking about is fan acceptance; given that football fans aren't the most enlightened it'd be good if he kicked major ass on the field just to shut up the loud mouths.

ANYWAY boxer laughing at a 5 day old post is a d*ck move.

[jitahs]

It was because I read the thread that I thought it was weird you would say that. Earlier you said, unqualified with regard to Sam's performance, that



Then you say it will only be an issue if he plays badly or is injured. It's what I'm hoping, but there are plenty of valid reasons to question the idea, based on things players have said publicly and by virtue of the fact that the NFL draws a majority of it's players from a country who has a poor track record when it comes to equality for and acceptance of homosexuality. The Kaepernick soundbyte (and the support from players and fans) is great, but it doesn't erase the possibility of things going badly.

There's no comprehension problem, I just don't agree with you.

It will be much more intense than on COLLINS!

That was my sentence. Go back and read it in context and quit cherry picking what you want.

[jitahs]

Colin Kaepernick has as much say regarding personnel decisions as you or I do so while it's good to see the team QB state he doesn't care about Sam's sexuality
until a team GM says the same thing publicly boxerboxer's point stands.

Drafting Sam is a public endorsement of his football talents; a GM putting his neck out on the line publicly proclaiming gay players are welcome is suicide by PR, outside of the Bay Area. Maybe even within.

Speaking of political expedience, a former All Pro qb has been widely known as being gay by the gay community. It's the don't ask don't tell policy applied.

His point is spurious: being gay won't come up in the locker room if he's good and an alpha, any more than being light-skinned, mix-raced or educated would. I'll acknowledge he's a bad fit for a redneck team, but a good fit for a team that drafts for a combination of need, talent and character. What y'all are talking about is fan acceptance; given that football fans aren't the most enlightened it'd be good if he kicked major ass on the field just to shut up the loud mouths.

ANYWAY boxer laughing at a 5 day old post is a d*ck move.

[boxerboxer]

ANYWAY boxer laughing at a 5 day old post is a d*ck move.

I got as good as I gave, but you ain't wrong.