Youth Unemployment

[shanerpvt]

seems to me, most want a position instead of the opportunity to build a career. cream alway rises to the top. if your current employer wont pay fair market value, chances are the competitors will (or your not worth what you think you are in that industry). supply/demand........same as it ever was...............

i come from the background where you choose a profession and work your ass off. i don't stress that there are tons of people out there makes WAY more for WAY less effort. my arrangement is with my boss. if that arrangement no longer works for him, he can fire me. if that arrangement no longer works for me, i can fire him.

cheers,
shaner

[progetto]

I started a plumbing apprenticeship when I was 16, started my own business at 21, toiled as Dazza would say for nearly 30 years, wouldn't have changed it but it certainly wasn't all beer and skittles. Grew to hate it, not the work, just the bullshit and walls authorities put in front of us everyday, some fresh college educated kid telling me, having years of real life practical experience how I should be doing my job. Just because you have credentials doesn't make you an expert, I would rather see more on the job training with real life experience backed up with theoretical study. Big catch 22 in today's society is you can't get a foot in the door without the letters behind your name, generally bringing nothing to the table except those said letters.
Bill

[King Of Dirk]

The under- and unemployed figures are a joke; the real numbers are unfortunately much higher. The subprime mortgage collapse was the first tremor - not the quake itself. There are several bubbles left to pop, think about those kids with $200,000 in non-dischargeable student loan debt and a degree in Renaissance Studies from your local 1,200 student liberal arts school.

It's a bad time to be an unsecured creditor, and not much better to be secured. At least the debtors can look forward to some inflation to help erase some of their load.

Sic transit gloria mundi.

[Derek Raymond]

The problem with apprenticeships today is finding one. Most unions and some trade schools aren't haven't been accepting applications in the states for the past few years.

As far as university kids go, I feel you should have to hold a regular job for a couple of years prior to entering education programs. Doesn't matter what. Grocery bagger, pit lube guy, bike builder... who cares. There is so much to learn from working at even the crappiest job that you're simply not going to get in school. What happened to kids having night/ weekend jobs in high school?

[progetto]

The problem with apprenticeships today is finding one. Most unions and some trade schools aren't haven't been accepting applications in the states for the past few years.

As far as university kids go, I feel you should have to hold a regular job for a couple of years prior to entering education programs. Doesn't matter what. Grocery bagger, pit lube guy, bike builder... who cares. There is so much to learn from working at even the crappiest job that you're simply not going to get in school. What happened to kids having night/ weekend jobs in high school?

My son thinks that because he's going to college 18 hours a week he shouldn't have to get a job, "I'm studying ..... hey dad can you lend me some money? " Where the hell did I go wrong.
Trade apprentices here in Australia are drying up because there are no incentives for employers to take one on, by the time you train them and they start to pay their way, there's a good chance they'll leave and start up as your opposition. The bottom line with any employee is to make money out of them, if they are only there to get through the extra work you may as well just cut your bad clients and save yourself the headaches.
I'm starting to sound like one of those grumpy old men.
Bill

[turpentine]

My son thinks that because he's going to college 18 hours a week he shouldn't have to get a job, "I'm studying ..... hey dad can you lend me some money? " Where the hell did I go wrong.
Trade apprentices here in Australia are drying up because there are no incentives for employers to take one on, by the time you train them and they start to pay their way, there's a good chance they'll leave and start up as your opposition. The bottom line with any employee is to make money out of them, if they are only there to get through the extra work you may as well just cut your bad clients and save yourself the headaches.
I'm starting to sound like one of those grumpy old men.
Bill

18 credit hours or 18 total hours?
18 credit hours is a full load and he SHOULD be studying all the time or wasting the money failing the classes. So long as he isn't partying more than 1 sometimes 2 nights a week he should graduate at least.

recently graduated and underemployed checking in.

edit: didn't realize this was 5 pages.

[bking]

I believe unions, gov't and a rising world have chased away industry from within our borders, and while we enjoyed the fruits of our parents labor, unfortunately our children and our childrens children are now set to "enjoy" ours. I visited with my son in law last night and we had a similar conversation. Unless we, at this crossroad we are at, make dramatic and painful steps now, it is only a matter of time. And I am not gloom and doom, it is not my nature.

[mainemike]

there are plenty of jobs, and opportunity lies in difficulty, so there must be unlimited opportunity in this economy. and if yer entrepreneurial the sky is the limit. i don't know a single younger (20's-30's) person w/a strong work ethic that is currently unemployed, struggling financially, or pessimistic about his/her future. thats it and the rest is graphs, stats, news reports, excuses, enabling, and horseshit.

[AbeNP]

there are plenty of jobs, and opportunity lies in difficulty, so there must be unlimited opportunity in this economy. and if yer entrepreneurial the sky is the limit. i don't know a single younger (20's-30's) person w/a strong work ethic that is currently unemployed, struggling financially, or pessimistic about his/her future. thats it and the rest is graphs, stats, news reports, excuses, enabling, and horseshit.

Mainemike, spot on yet again (and w/o visual aids this time too). I am constantly astonished at how quickly some of my peers give up, or have a total lack of foresight beyond the next 6 months. For me, internships = apprenticeships and this winter I got an education which no 30k/yr school could have given me, and for free too! The sad thing is that I was doing work that at one time someone probably got paid to do, but that is because I rock, and I showed them that I rock so they gave me real work to do. Not enough of us have that attitude. That attitude is golden, atmo.

[Archibald]

there are plenty of jobs, and opportunity lies in difficulty, so there must be unlimited opportunity in this economy. and if yer entrepreneurial the sky is the limit. i don't know a single younger (20's-30's) person w/a strong work ethic that is currently unemployed, struggling financially, or pessimistic about his/her future. thats it and the rest is graphs, stats, news reports, excuses, enabling, and horseshit.

Fucking A!

It's amazing how much drama disappears when you work hard and make competent decisions.

We recently advertised what is really, imho, a very good job. We has some real quality applicants. We also had a bunch of slackers. Folks that couldn't be bothered to attempt making a good impression with a simple introductory letter. What I noticed is the applicants that had jobs wanted this job. Those that were unemployed couldn't seem to care less. Isn't that backasswards?

[Jonathan]

Fucking A!

It's amazing how much drama disappears when you work hard and make competent decisions.

We recently advertised what is really, imho, a very good job. We has some real quality applicants. We also had a bunch of slackers. Folks that couldn't be bothered to attempt making a good impression with a simple introductory letter. What I noticed is the applicants that had jobs wanted this job. Those that were unemployed couldn't seem to care less. Isn't that backasswards?

a few years ago I was witness to Alan Greenspan giving a nice bitch slap to Senator Sanders (VT) in his testimony to congress. Sanders tried to pidgeon hole Greenspan into saying that raisng the minimum wage was good. G'Span's rsponse was that kids need to have an opportunity to learn how to apply, dress for an interview, show up on time etc and a high minimum wage does rob the workforce of a certain number of those 1st time workers. Now this is not about Greenspan, that's another topic, but I think he was right in this small instance. The number of kids I see apply for jobs wearing shorts or interview in jeans blows me away. My dad would have kicked my ass if I'd have gone for an interview without a tie on, nice shoes etc. I just don't think some people are prepared for the world we live in.

[monadnocky]

a few years ago I was witness to Alan Greenspan giving a nice bitch slap to Senator Sanders (VT) in his testimony to congress. Sanders tried to pidgeon hole Greenspan into saying that raisng the minimum wage was good. G'Span's rsponse was that kids need to have an opportunity to learn how to apply, dress for an interview, show up on time etc and a high minimum wage does rob the workforce of a certain number of those 1st time workers. Now this is not about Greenspan, that's another topic, but I think he was right in this small instance. The number of kids I see apply for jobs wearing shorts or interview in jeans blows me away. My dad would have kicked my ass if I'd have gone for an interview without a tie on, nice shoes etc. I just don't think some people are prepared for the world we live in.

Ok, ok. I know that everyone has one of "these" stories, but hear me out: I recently worked at a mid-sized neuropsychology practice which happens to be next to a few small but decent colleges. Every once in a while we have someone drop by from one of these colleges who expresses interest in an "internship" of sorts - not a clinical internship, but just a short-term secretarial "internship" to introduce them to the feel of a medical office (we're psychology, but neuropsychology in many ways is akin to a medical office). This is usually for college students who might be thinking about becoming a mental health worker of some sort - gives them the feel of the office, gives a realistic overview of what being a psychologist (or Master's level clinician) is like, etc. Of course, they are not allowed to have clinical patient contact, but you get the point.

Last spring we had the father of a colleague (a doc) contact us, stating that his daughter was interested in such a position. Warning flags already, I know, but the owner of the practice is kind-hearted and perhaps a little naive. Took her on after one interview, which I wasn't present for, but the vibe around the office was that she was dressed inappropriately for the interview.

This woman - not even "young woman" as she was a junior in college - was dressed completely inappropriately on her first (and second) day of work. Not revealing, but just waaaaay too informal. And she smelled. Bad. Literally. That wasn't necessarily the problem, though- she had absolutely no idea how to do BASIC things, like "file something in a file cabinet" (I'm talking Smith-goes-after-Jones stuff here) and "making a telephone call to someone" (what is so hard about "Hello, this is so-and-so from Monadnocky's Haus of Neuropsychology, we're reminding you that you have an appointment tomorrow" is beyond me). She had no basic, BASIC skills whatsoever, and staff demanded that she be let go after the second day. She was. It was simply amazing to me that someone in college - and this, again, is a pretty decent school - couldn't even place a file in the right location.

At the risk of generalization, I'm not claiming that she is representative of her peers. Her predecessor, from the same college, was fabulous and we hired her and we were glad we did. As Maine Mike stated way back on the first page, there's a place for people who are good, who are at least making an effort. Not always, I know - believe me, I know my share of excellent mental health workers who are at least underemployed. But at the level I'm discussing here, there's an absurd amount of individuals who have no idea whatsoever regarding what the basic requirements of the world of work are. If this woman was at least making an effort, and had some basic skills, she very likely would have been hired at least part time, and would have ALWAYS had a place to work just down the street from where she lived.

Note that I'm not making the argument that the youth unemployment problem is due to young people not trying hard enough or not having a clue. It's systemic and due to the mistakes and greed of their parents (which, coincidentally, may also may be to blame for their cluelessness regarding work in general).

[caleb]

i don't know a single younger (20's-30's) person w/a strong work ethic that is currently unemployed, struggling financially, or pessimistic about his/her future.

I certainly do. I'd say I know at least ten people who were good enough to get hired by large legal and architectural firms 5-10 years ago but are now without work because the work dried up. Yes, I know some will say that lawyers, architects, and anyone else that doesn't do "real" work is a degenerate deserving of unemployment, but that's not how I see it. These guys have real skills, the market just isn't there for them anymore. I know your post is partly tongue-in-cheek, but I don't think it's an accurate representation of the country. There are lots of people out there who have done pretty much everything right and now find themselves hanging out in the cold.

[shanerpvt]

i guess that’s the point. they might not have opportunity in their trained profession, but with a strong work ethic (and some determination) they will find opportunity.

depressed markets are fertile grounds for the entrepreneur. It is in fast growing robust times they outgrow cash flow or get swallowed up by large corps looking to quench their thirst of ever more profits (not that there is anything wrong with that).

if I wake up tomorrow to find nobody wants my product (or skills), I will find new ones that fit current needs.

Good luck to all in these trying times,
shaner

[caleb]

i guess that’s the point. they might not have opportunity in their trained profession, but with a strong work ethic (and some determination) they will find opportunity.

That presumes that the unemployed have a fairly flexible skillset, which isn't always the case. I have a friend who's an experimental physicist - smashing atoms together and stuff. There are lots of unemployed people in his field because research money has dried up, labs have closed down, and universities aren't hiring. It's not like those guys can just flex over into an adjacent field, their skills are too specialized. Here they couldn't even teach physics in a public high school because they don't have teaching certification. I'm not convinced it's a lack of work ethic, rather I think it's often investing in a highly specialized skillset without a plan b. PhD's don't come with an escape hatch. There comes a point where the investment of time, money, and life into a set of skills just means for some people that plan a is the only reasonable plan.

[shanerpvt]

That presumes that the unemployed have a fairly flexible skillset, which isn't always the case. I have a friend who's an experimental physicist - smashing atoms together and stuff. There are lots of unemployed people in his field because research money has dried up, labs have closed down, and universities aren't hiring. It's not like those guys can just flex over into an adjacent field, their skills are too specialized. Here they couldn't even teach physics in a public high school because they don't have teaching certification. I'm not convinced it's a lack of work ethic, rather I think it's often investing in a highly specialized skillset without a plan b. PhD's don't come with an escape hatch. There comes a point where the investment of time, money, and life into a set of skills just means for some people that plan a is the only reasonable plan.

while i respect your opinion, i don't agree. we must continue to grow.

all the best,
shaner

[jscottyk]

I certainly do. I'd say I know at least ten people who were good enough to get hired by large legal and architectural firms 5-10 years ago but are now without work because the work dried up. Yes, I know some will say that lawyers, architects, and anyone else that doesn't do "real" work is a degenerate deserving of unemployment, but that's not how I see it. These guys have real skills, the market just isn't there for them anymore. I know your post is partly tongue-in-cheek, but I don't think it's an accurate representation of the country. There are lots of people out there who have done pretty much everything right and now find themselves hanging out in the cold.

While this is probably true it referenced work didn't just dry up for the 16-24, it dried up for the entire field.

Can't get hired by a firm but are "good enough"? Go start another firm. Take a risk. Work hard. Possibly fail big time. Possibly reap huge rewards.

[caleb]

While this is probably true it referenced work didn't just dry up for the 16-24, it dried up for the entire field.

Can't get hired by a firm but are "good enough"? Go start another firm. Take a risk. Work hard. Possibly fail big time. Possibly reap huge rewards.

Yet, if the reduction in existing employment is a reflection of a reduction in market demand, the situation is still pretty bad for entrepreneurs in the field that is contracting, no?

I'm just not seeing the "if you work hard you'll be rewarded" line playing out in society for the young these days and I'm trying about as hard as I can to resist the reduction of that trend to the individual. The reason we have nearly 10% unemployment is not because people suddenly became lazy. They've always been lazy and always will; what's changing is something else.

[54ny77]

i think that 10% number is a joke. simple smell test is ask around amongst your peers/colleagues and take note of how many are unemployed.

add the underemployed to that list and you get a sense of the severity of the situation.

i'm young and can't appreciate the wisdom or confidence of being able to say america is resilient and is at its best when backs are against the wall, but man....i'd like to see some light at the end of the tunnel....

Yet, if the reduction in existing employment is a reflection of a reduction in market demand, the situation is still pretty bad for entrepreneurs in the field that is contracting, no?

I'm just not seeing the "if you work hard you'll be rewarded" line playing out in society for the young these days and I'm trying about as hard as I can to resist the reduction of that trend to the individual. The reason we have nearly 10% unemployment is not because people suddenly became lazy. They've always been lazy and always will; what's changing is something else.

[mainemike]

I certainly do. I'd say I know at least ten people who were good enough to get hired by large legal and architectural firms 5-10 years ago but are now without work because the work dried up. Yes, I know some will say that lawyers, architects, and anyone else that doesn't do "real" work is a degenerate deserving of unemployment, but that's not how I see it. These guys have real skills, the market just isn't there for them anymore. I know your post is partly tongue-in-cheek, but I don't think it's an accurate representation of the country. There are lots of people out there who have done pretty much everything right and now find themselves hanging out in the cold.

agreed/understood.yer/i'm talking about young folks whom, while they are looking for a job, can work. there is dignity in any labor and i'm not preachin, but work is good for anybody and if these folks are able bodied, they could benefit from busting their humps and/or serving others. which to me means: labor by day and bartending at night, or similar iterations thereof. i'm glad you went to college, good luck w/yer future, have you used a chainsaw before ?