Fillet Pro

[Freddy]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I have a brass vs silver question. I'm almost done frame number two, so I'm still a newb. I've built these two frames under the tutelage of an experienced builder that only uses silver on lugged frames, and I think for my third frame (a buddy wants a lugged fixed gear 650b commuter with cantilevers) I think I'm going to try it on my own. The problem is that as a beginner, the $30/oz or so cost for 56% silver starts to add up pretty quickly. Apart from differences in melting temperatures and the coarser clearances required for brass brazing, are there any reasons for me to not try brass with frame number three? I'll just be using double butted cro-mo, nothing exotic at all, with cast lugs, and would use silver for bosses, bridges, and other braze-ons. What brass and flux is recommended? Is there a type that flows easier or is more forgiving than others?

Thanks,

Pete

Pete try the "System 48 rod and flux" first choice, Brazing cast lugs if you decide to do so make them nice and loose, some of them shrink during cool down and some just crack in the twilight zone?

Any of the popular products can work well insofar as fluxes and rods in LFB-- torch heating is more touchy and you should practice a lot before commiting to a framebuild up.



Use my phone if you get in trouble.



Of course I would be pleased if you use the Cycle Design products but they are all very close in that type of brazing.



"Things go better with COKE" Lugs tend go better with silver.

[dbohemian]

even with stainless, Dave Anderson says he's using nickel silver, which is similar in price to lfb

I have attempted to braze stainless with nickel silver before. I can accomplish it quite well with standard cro-mo but with stainless I always got distortion issues that were really bad. Remember, stainless does not absorb heat well, so it takes more of it and distortion is always an issue whether you braze it or weld it. A lower melting temperature material will cause far less distortion and that could be critical in certain circumstances.

Unless a color match is needed I would just use LFB over nickel silver like Allstate 11. Personally I think it is a better product. For stainless bike frames or very thin section tubing fillet pro is the way to go.

[pruckelshaus]

System 48 is still silver, and thus still expensive. Does the Brazage LFB, at 1/30th of the price of silver, work well with lugs? Or is it fillet only?

[Freddy]

With a Nickel Bronze (those are not silverbearing) the flux has to be very potent and as Dave said a longer heat cycle and a lot more heat is employed.
I installed my hand cut 17/4 drops using All State 11 many years ago and Wilson cast ones - but as has been posted so many times, George Wilson and I tried everything over a period of years.
There are also tricks like using two alloys during the joining.
I don't want to get into that since there are so many folks out there that may be able to complete an SS joint but there is no higher combination of bond beyond the alloy and flux system I developed over the years.
Dave did not say to use LFB over Nickel bearing, like in combination, it was meant that LFB can do more jobs and is much more predicable and ductile.
But Speed costs money and the quality possible with a multi alloy with plenty of silver is much easier to get good clean strong joints.

How about this>
LFB for basic std work and some SS, your prep and the activity of the flux dictate if you can get adhesion, it is very common to see a flow together and find the bronze or silver bearing bronzes have not fully adhered.

Don't clean SS with a media blaster, use a mild acid and lots of clean water flush, rubbing in the SS light flux with a benign pad like a green 3m will get the surface started to be receptive before heat is applied, and freshly cleaned parts should always be kept covered with flux or they will lose the reception and flash over again.

Remember that all SS is not the same and some alloys are more comfortable to work with than others. The extra cost to save hours was why I introduced the Fillet Pro and compared to what a tire costs now days is chump change for the extra benefits.

[Freddy]

System 48 is still silver, and thus still expensive. Does the Brazage LFB, at 1/30th of the price of silver, work well with lugs? Or is it fillet only?

One fact we can't avoid is cost vs all the cool stuff.
But this is as good a time as any to remind the readers that precision cast lugs were finely made to allow thin flowing agents and with less voids to fill.
Once you get into brazing them the clearance must be enlarged, this is not easy to do.
And these steps take up time and may make a lot of noise if say -like with an air grinder?
So it is work more to save fifty bucks overall or work clean and fast and add a bit to your selling prices.
If you don't mind taking mucho care at fitting up and more shop time and such just use LFB.

Most lugs are fine as I stated , but leave room for the alloy plus expansion and don't cool any faster than 50 or 60 degrees F per second, don't submerge them in sand either when they are hot.
Turn off any air flow and leave the room for ten minutes, then you don't breath the fumes that went up to the top of the room and the metal cools just about how it was made to do without problems.
I could be a hardnose and make people mad, but I know and did build a lot of brazed lug frames and I didn't have the great fluxes way back then, it is easier now.

So short answer "sure but you will work harder"

[pruckelshaus]

OK, Freddy, fair enough. Like so much of life, there are trade-offs. Thanks for your reply.

Pete

[EricKeller]

I have to say switching to lfb on lugs from silver is not a slam dunk. I wouldn't just assume you can do the switch without some woodshedding, so that means an investment of time as well as $ for practice lugs/bb shell.

[steve garro]

OK, Freddy, fair enough. Like so much of life, there are trade-offs. Thanks for your reply.

Pete

So which one is it? charge extra to the client or suck it up youself? Once again, an honest question - how much do you spend in filler on an a frame built in fillet brazed fashion using nothing but silver alloys? I've never done it, so I'm asking. - Garro.

[pruckelshaus]

I think in any business, you can only absorb so much in the way of materials cost increases; you have fixed costs, i.e. the amount you are paying in rent, shop materials, paint, how much you pay yourself for your time, etc. I'm not a pro, have never been paid for a frame and I think it will be a while before that happens (my wife gets a new frame next, and a friend of mine wants one after that, so these will be cost of materials jobs), but before becoming a teacher, I was a web developer who did a lot of freelance work (and I still do freelance work from time to time). Every time I had a job come along that had me consider lowering my rate, I remembered something a friend told me -- your rate is your rate. Those jobs that I did take a lower rate on, I just didn't have the passion for that I did for the jobs where I didn't need to worry about paying myself and paying my overhead. Now, with that said, when you price your product, no matter what it is, you need to take those regular increases into consideration -- build in a bit of a cost buffer so that if materials costs go up 10% or even 20%, you're still covering your costs. I suppose an alternative would be to have a "base" cost, and then have a materials surcharge if those materials costs go beyond what you have allocated in the cost of a frame, sort of like how UPS adds a fuel surcharge.

Pete

[steve garro]

build in a bit of a cost buffer so that if materials costs go up 10% or even 20%, you're still covering your costs. Pete

I think it's ALLOT more then that. And it's not a cost that is forced on you, but one you chose for a personal reason. I know how much material it takes to braze a frame as I have built going on well over 250 fillet brazed frames. I use seven brass rods for a frame with just enough short ends left to tack the next one. That equates to allot of silver alloy. I'd just like to know from someone who has done one what the filler cost was - that's all. I'm trying to promote sustainable buisness practices, one of which is tracking your building costs. Maybe I want to build a KVA fillet bike & I want to know the cost before hand so I can spit the client an accurate quote. - Garro.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Steve- I would think that you could come up with a pretty good idea of the added cost to fillet braze a frame with a silver filler using some measurements and math. How many inches of LFB rod do you use? You mention 7 rods. Measure the total length. Then transfer that length into silver rod (or coil) inches total and calculate that cost. If I had a new, unused, coil of 56 or 50N I'd offer to measure how long they are for you (perhaps a supplier might offer this, or for Fillet pro, for the forum?). Finding a dollars per inch cost would then be easy. Of course that assumes that the amount of silveryou'd use is around the same as LFB. But it is a simple start to an approximate answer.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Steve- As I posted that response I forgot to add the need to weigh the LFB total (7 rods) to get it's cost per frame. A fraction of the cost per pound. Or you could just count how many rods make a pound (or 5 depending on your purchase volume).

[steve garro]

Steve- I would think that you could come up with a pretty good idea of the added cost to fillet braze a frame with a silver filler using some measurements and math. How many inches of LFB rod do you use? You mention 7 rods. Measure the total length. Then transfer that length into silver rod (or coil) inches total and calculate that cost. If I had a new, unused, coil of 56 or 50N I'd offer to measure how long they are for you (perhaps a supplier might offer this, or for Fillet pro, for the forum?). Finding a dollars per inch cost would then be easy. Of course that assumes that the amount of silveryou'd use is around the same as LFB. But it is a simple start to an approximate answer.

Or I figure I could ask here where at least three builders have posted them on FNL & all three of the people involved with the company post just about every day. I want to hear from someone with experience, I don't want to add my percieved notions. Heck - I don't keep that much silver in stock & it's sold by weight, not length. I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops - is this sacred knowledge or something? When someone orders it for a full fillet brazed frame how much material do you tell them they will need? If I call HJ & ask him how much of his filler material I will need he will give a concrete awnser. - Garro.

[Freddy]

Seven of our lfb rods equals about three troy ozs of "Fillet Pro" so it is not earth shattering compared to the cost of tubes and other components.
If you ask any of the builders like Tim over at Shamrock I think you will find about three of four ozs is fine using the "Fillet Pro"
I know Wade and I used about three on the last mtb we built here, with nice medium fillets.
And of course any lfb can be employed with good results doing old school, it is touchy on thin tube offerings but I know I could use either 99% of the time.

I guess I could pull the license on my offerings and stop allowing sale of them?

For the record all of offerings fly off the shelves and the includes all over this globe, so someone must like the results?

You know my telephone works so if you want to wheel and deal and hear the rest of the story pick yours up.

We can go over the mill costs and measure things and compare things in realtime.

[steve garro]

if you ask any of the builders like Tim over at Shamrock I think you will find about three of four ozs is fine using the "Fillet Pro"
I know Wade and I used about three on the last mtb we built here, with nice medium fillets.

And of course any lfb can be employed with good results doing old school, it is touchy on thin tube offerings but I know I could use either 99% of the time.

I guess I could pull the license on my offerings and stop allowing sale of them?

For the record all of offerings fly off the shelves and the includes all over this globe, so someone must like the results?

You know my telephone works so if you want to wheel and deal and hear the rest of the story pick yours up.

We can go over the mill costs and measure things and compare things in realtime.

1: thanks! finally an awnser. So ~ $100.00+ filler? 2: Freddie: I just do not have time to talk with you, and I don't want that to sound harsh, but with you it's 99% about non-building things for hours of you talking, which I just can't do. I'm fixing up a rural AZ house too {TWO of them - in a chair or on crutches - it sucks} I'm married, I have a full time profitable building gig, and feel tired almost constantly. I didn't call my Mom for four years once - don't feel special! E-mail works for me. - Garro.

[Freddy]

Yeah I would say about $100 more, but if you are going for a KVA build, you can have my private stash and if you go for lfb, you can have some custom made flux for free that allows your CDA 680 to adhere to the stuff, and I am willing to come up and show you.

Fair enough, we are both in pretty bad shape from getting hit with cars, so I feel every moment of your pain.

Freddy

[steve garro]

Yeah I would say about $100 more, but if you are going for a KVA build, you can have my private stash and if you go for lfb, you can have some custom made flux for free that allows your CDA 680 to adhere to the stuff, and I am willing to come up and show you.

Fair enough, we are both in pretty bad shape from getting hit with cars, so I feel every moment of your pain.

Freddy

No Worries. FWIW, I have no want to build with stainless at this time. gotta clarify that before the calls/orders start coming in. Take care of yourself & I will do the same, we all have hard rows to hoe. - Garro.

[Freddy]

You bet let's hope 2011 is a better year.

Freddy

[steve garro]

You bet let's hope 2011 is a better year.

Freddy

2010 was a great year! - Garro.

[wbarocsi]

Hi Steve and all,

A fillet built with Fillet Pro tends to be smaller than a LFB fillet, so you will find you use less Fillet Pro by length than bronze. On average I use about 2.5 oz of Fillet Pro on a frame.
I like the look of large-ish fillets, if you go smaller, even less would be used. This is about 5 coils, or 150 inches.
Most folks find there is a significant time savings when using Fillet Pro because the time doing finish work is greatly reduced.
This time savings will be less for a top brazer like Steve because his time spent filing is way less than most.
Most folks will save about an hour, which if taken into account will significantly decrease the total cost of use.

On CrMo steel .75 mm. or thicker I usually use LFB, except for seat clusters. I always use Fillet Pro on seat clusters because it eliminates distortion problems, and allows the use of thin seat tubes,
and the elimination of additional reinforcement. On thin, heat treated steels, I always use Fillet Pro
For folks using stainless dropouts, Fillet Pro is fast and easy. Making a half round spacer will save in silver costs, but add to fabrication time. It is probably
a wash for cost. If you decide to use a spacer, System 48 with Stainless Light Flux (Not System 48 flux)would be the best choice.

For a solo pro builder, time is usually the biggest limiting factor, not the cost of supplies. If a builder can save their time with a small additional cost in supplies, they probably should, and use the time in other ways.

Wade Barocsi
CycleDesignUSA.com