Pricing for noobs

[vulture]

How good is your wife's job, do you have kids? I am guilty of charging too little and there is more stress there than you would believe. Occasionally I will still do it and I kick myself every time. From the customer perspective it is important to get what you pay for, but also to PAY for what you get.

[themanmonkey]

I'm at the point where I have friends wanting second frames, their friends wanting frames, and people I don't know wanting frames.

Have you asked any of them to pony up a deposit? You'd be surprised how few will be able to find their checkbook when it comes down to a real order. I actually have 2 folks (friends of friends) that have been saying they'll order a frame for almost 10 years. I don't mind these guys at all, but they have taught me two things. You don't put someone on the list until you have a deposit, and you don't have a customer until you have a deposit.

[Dazza]

Have you asked any of them to pony up a deposit? You'd be surprised how few will be able to find their checkbook when it comes down to a real order. I actually have 2 folks (friends of friends) that have been saying they'll order a frame for almost 10 years. I don't mind these guys at all, but they have taught me two things. You don't put someone on the list until you have a deposit, and you don't have a customer until you have a deposit.

and stress and ensure that it is understood that the deposit is non refundable
as you have spent time selling and processing the order
and it will ensure only the commited will take your time

[edoz]

There are some good comments here, plenty to think about.
Curt, I see what you mean about aesthetics. I've done about 16 total, with half of those in various states of retirement or destructive testing aftermath. It took 7 or 8 before I started to settle on what looked good to me. Most of them have been 29ers, and it's pretty hard to beat Niner's steering geometry in this neck of the woods. So as far as design, all I've done was raise the bb a little and adjust the tt length to the rider's taste. Works good, but hardly trying out all the possibilities.
The build cost deal is exactly what I'm doing right now, but I don't really want to venture out of a small group of people who are comfortable being my own personal Chuck Yeager. Insurance is gonna happen pretty soon, but the rest of the business thing is a ways off. I'm mainly just trying to get everything thought out ahead of time.

Craig, I don't look at it the same way. Once the money leaves my wallet it's gone to me. The return on that investment is the pleasure of building a bike. What I see hanging on the wall are bikes going to waste.

Wade, I don't have a wife and my girlfriend wants to quit her job and run off with IMBA's trail crew. I suppose that means I'm hosed. Or I can sleep on a cot in the back of my shop:) Btw, I'm a friend of Jason Quade's. I was Theresa's roommate and introduced her to Jason. Love your fixtures.

Thanks guys, this is very helpful.

[Dave Anderson]

Paint seems to be the big problem with pricing to me. If I'm spending $400+ to get a frame painted, that really puts a floor on the price of the frame. Right now, my powder coating price is a lot less than that, but it doesn't look that great with lugs. And furthermore, it seems like the people you get by selling cheap may not be the customers you want.

You may want to consider learning to paint......its a good way to further control your final product, helps with efficiency (no shipping frames back & forth), and with making money. As you say, a good single color paint job from a pro painter costs $400 +/-. For me, a single color base coat/ clear cost finish costs me about $35 in material and about 3.5-4 hours of labor.....you can do the math....a single color powder coat costs me about $15 in material and 1-2 hours of labor.....

Dave

[Curt Goodrich]

There are some good comments here, plenty to think about.
Curt, I see what you mean about aesthetics. I've done about 16 total, with half of those in various states of retirement or destructive testing aftermath. It took 7 or 8 before I started to settle on what looked good to me. Most of them have been 29ers, and it's pretty hard to beat Niner's steering geometry in this neck of the woods. So as far as design, all I've done was raise the bb a little and adjust the tt length to the rider's taste. Works good, but hardly trying out all the possibilities.
The build cost deal is exactly what I'm doing right now, but I don't really want to venture out of a small group of people who are comfortable being my own personal Chuck Yeager. Insurance is gonna happen pretty soon, but the rest of the business thing is a ways off. I'm mainly just trying to get everything thought out ahead of time.

Craig, I don't look at it the same way. Once the money leaves my wallet it's gone to me. The return on that investment is the pleasure of building a bike. What I see hanging on the wall are bikes going to waste.

Wade, I don't have a wife and my girlfriend wants to quit her job and run off with IMBA's trail crew. I suppose that means I'm hosed. Or I can sleep on a cot in the back of my shop:) Btw, I'm a friend of Jason Quade's. I was Theresa's roommate and introduced her to Jason. Love your fixtures.

Thanks guys, this is very helpful.

Edoz,

I hope I didn't come off like a dick. All I said was meant to help not hinder. Keep it up. You sound like you've got a good head on your shoulders. Good luck.

[Taylor]

I am new as well...
I have built 7 bikes... on my 8th right now.
I have a price list... although no one that isn't a close friend has ordered anything aside from a "Can you weld/repair my cracked frame?"... which also means everyone has got the bro down deal. I feel like I should have kept it on the DL and ran without a website or good paint a bit longer, I didn't need to call myself a framebuilder quite yet.
On the other hand, I have learned a ton, and still have about 10,000 times that to learn. I definitely appreciate the honesty here! I hope I'm not going to get totally slammed....

-Taylor

[e-RICHIE]

worth remembering atmo -

[edoz]

Edoz,

I hope I didn't come off like a dick. All I said was meant to help not hinder. Keep it up. You sound like you've got a good head on your shoulders. Good luck.

Not at all. I appreciate the fact that you and others take time to help new people out. That's one of the things that's cool about the framebuilding community.

[dbohemian]

As you say, a good single color paint job from a pro painter costs $400 +/-. For me, a single color base coat/ clear cost finish costs me about $35 in material and about 3.5-4 hours of labor.....you can do the math....a single color powder coat costs me about $15 in material and 1-2 hours of labor.....

Dave

35 dollars ? Maybe the pure raw material yes (that is if you buy in larger quantities and have a mixing bank.) Consider all the extraneous materials you use and all the tools you have for painting and how much that stuff costs and depreciates. Raw materials are a tiny part of that.

the four hours you spend painting is time that you could be building if you have a backlog to support it so that is just a labor charge. 250-300 including all this is a more accurate number. I paint too so I agree with you. It has many advantages but saying it costs 35 bucks is somewhat misleading.

Powder is less labor still and much less in material but you have to admit the entry price is high (application equipment and oven)

[Eric Estlund]

the entry price is high

Dave is on to something here- and not just for painting. Are you mitering tubes with a file or a mill? How much do you have tied up in tooling, and did you pay for it with money saved up from sold bikes, or are you distributing tooling costs over the cost of future builds? There are lots of little money pockets tied up along the way that play into how income gets distributed.

[Dave Anderson]

35 dollars ? Maybe the pure raw material yes (that is if you buy in larger quantities and have a mixing bank.) Consider all the extraneous materials you use and all the tools you have for painting and how much that stuff costs and depreciates. Raw materials are a tiny part of that.

the four hours you spend painting is time that you could be building if you have a backlog to support it so that is just a labor charge. 250-300 including all this is a more accurate number. I paint too so I agree with you. It has many advantages but saying it costs 35 bucks is somewhat misleading.

Powder is less labor still and much less in material but you have to admit the entry price is high (application equipment and oven)

..…well, I didn’t say it cost $35, I said it cost me $35 in material and 3.5 to 4 hours in labor. Opportunity costs (lost time building), overhead, shop supplies, small parts & repairs, & etc. are a factor in the cost of “labor” for sure, but it doesn’t cost me anywhere near $104 an hour to paint a bike, including all of these things. However, my equipment is paid for and was fully depreciated years ago. I have low overhead. You are, of course, correct in that costs and overhead can vary and it may cost others more to paint a bike themselves than it does me. What makes sense to me may not to others, but I know what my costs are and I know that I am money ahead spending time painting my own stuff vs. building and having someone else paint, and I think its something for a new builder to consider.

Besides, I like to paint. It has a lot of rewards and those are worth considering as well.

Dave

[EricKeller]

You may want to consider learning to paint......its a good way to further control your final product, helps with efficiency (no shipping frames back & forth), and with making money. Dave

I love to paint. It isn't legal for me to paint in my current location without incredibly expensive paint booths. The way real estate is around here, every cow field within 20 miles has a house built in it and there isn't any cheap rural place for me to set up. It is in my plans, my daughter does some fairly impressive art, I think she will be pretty good at bike frames fairly quickly.

[steve garro]

Dave is on to something here- and not just for painting. Are you mitering tubes with a file or a mill? How much do you have tied up in tooling, and did you pay for it with money saved up from sold bikes, or are you distributing tooling costs over the cost of future builds? There are lots of little money pockets tied up along the way that play into how income gets distributed.

everything i own tied to my buisness was bought with cash. done deal. - Garro.

[EricKeller]

everything i own tied to my buisness was bought with cash. done deal. - Garro.

Seems to me that cash-only is the only way to go. Then again, that's a lot of cash for most people.

[steve garro]

Seems to me that cash-only is the only way to go. Then again, that's a lot of cash for most people.

I started with a vise, a bench, a jig, files & an A/O setup. everything else you see/have seen in my shop was bought with cash from building bikes. i have the shop payed off & will have the property/house paid off in 4yrs or less. you have to earn it and you have to want it BAD. - Garro.

[abbeyQ]

eric the one thing I will add that hasn't been brought up is that you need to sell BIKES not just frames. What kind of parts do people hang on custom bikes like a crumpton? expensive ones, that's what kind. Their is a lot of extra money to be had in that realm that can be done with zero overhead. it is also something that can rather easily double the amount of money that you are making on a sale.

since I know the kind of guy you are and have seen your bikes I would reckon $1300 for a bike like Brian has would be a good place to start. however don't add all the little details without adding all the little extra costs. I know this is something that wade will admit to doing and like he said above he isn't happy about it

[themanmonkey]

everything i own tied to my buisness was bought with cash. done deal. - Garro.

The key to any business is controlling your debts and overhead. I did/do it the same way Steve did. Some folks see my set-up and think it's rinky-dink. That's OK because I don't NEED them as customers to pay off my debt. Simple works fine, unless you're trying to sell the "wow."