How to justify buying the best.

[lumpy]

I rode a steel bike to work today and hit a patch of rough pavement on a 40mph downhill. I'm amazed I'm alive, and the bike might even still be straight.

Will I really make it home? I will now have doubts, brake early.

I would inspect it for cracks. You can't be too careful.

[gt6267a]

Yes, and just because something better or prettier or faster exists, does not diminish the quality or beauty or speed of the thing you have. Or are.

For example, the existence of Whistle Pig does not make my glass of Bulliet any less tasty.

i don't understand the existence of Whistle Pig. Terrible stuff. After the first few tries, it never left the shelf. When we moved, I think 1/2 a bottle was poured down the drain to save the effort of putting it in a box. Given the price, people must like the stuff but it didn't work out over here.

[monadnocky]

i don't understand the existence of Whistle Pig. Terrible stuff. After the first few tries, it never left the shelf. When we moved, I think 1/2 a bottle was poured down the drain to save the effort of putting it in a box. Given the price, people must like the stuff but it didn't work out over here.

Do not listen to this person.

Seriously now... very surprised. I think it's the best rye I've ever tasted.

[dogrange]

i don't understand the existence of Whistle Pig. Terrible stuff. After the first few tries, it never left the shelf. When we moved, I think 1/2 a bottle was poured down the drain to save the effort of putting it in a box. Given the price, people must like the stuff but it didn't work out over here.

At the very least, highly highly overrated and not even close to worth its price.

[thollandpe]

Always on topic--we finally dropped the big money on sphere ice molds for weekend sipping. First sip, justified.

Cheers!

Here's where the thread derails into molded spherical ice vs. block ice that's been artisanally fractured along natural cleavage planes using an ash-handled high-strength-low-alloy steel pick.

[fastupslowdown]

Learned long time ago, and keep learning , 'buy right or buy twice'. easy to justify if you buy and hold. Read the DI2 example and I don't agree this means buying the most bells and whistles, but rather one should pay up for quality. To me that means Ultegra of Dura Ace mechanical and not 105 or lower. Been riding my C-59 for 4 years and still don't feel that the bike is dated or not the very best. I might have felt that way if I bought a lower end Colnago or lower end group set.

Buying the best can easily be misunderstood to mean ceramic bearings and loads of gadgets and I think that is a distortion.

Bought a high end steel Breitling 12 years too. Still wearing it and it feels brand new to me. Ditto a BMW 3 series. Unlike previous Hondas and Mercuries this feels brand new and still state of the art to me. -Mike G

[Mabouya]

Value is good when you buy stocks not so much when you buy bikes.

Actually, what I believe you meant to say is that there can sometimes be intangible benefits to some bikes that you find particularly attractive. Put that way, the equation is still true.

In other words, one could arbitrarily jack up the numerator to the point where you're comfortable with the value and go for it. ;)

[bigbill]

I've been riding the Big Leg Emma since 2006. It's on its second paint job and third group. With repaint, I got a FD braze-on installed. That bike is the definition of intangibles.

And for brown liquor, I have a plastic cup that I fill with 1/2" of filtered water and place it in the freezer until solid. I pour the liquor on the "frozen pond". My current liquor of choice is Balcones Rumble.

[Diablo de Acero]

Cheers!

Here's where the thread derails into molded spherical ice vs. block ice that's been artisanally fractured along natural cleavage planes using an ash-handled high-strength-low-alloy steel pick.

Hey! I am a big fan of artisanal pickles and salts. And I still don't know if I am actually supposed to use the artisanal axes with the painted handles for real use or a declaration of ?

[joosttx]

Actually, what I believe you meant to say is that there can sometimes be intangible benefits to some bikes that you find particularly attractive. Put that way, the equation is still true.

In other words, one could arbitrarily jack up the numerator to the point where you're comfortable with the value and go for it. ;)

That is not what I am saying at all. My point is value doesnt matter with stuff like bikes. You can say Ultegra which is a great value, etc, etc. But if you can afford Dura ace you buy dura ace unless some moral-like factor in your head tells you no. Value matters only in economics not in hobbies. I never bought a bike because of its good value. I buy the best bike I could afford. I buy a stock or make a business decision on value. Thats my point.

[lumpy]

That is not what I am saying at all. My point is value doesnt matter with stuff like bikes. You can say Ultegra which is a great value, etc, etc. But if you can afford Dura ace you buy dura ace unless some moral-like factor in your head tells you no. Value matters only in economics not in hobbies. I never bought a bike because of its good value. I buy the best bike I could afford. I buy a stock or make a business decision on value. Thats my point.

Unless you don't want Dura Ace, in which case you buy something else that stimulates your pleasure/reward centers. None of this is particularly "useful" but it feels nice.

[joosttx]

Unless you don't want Dura Ace, in which case you buy something else that stimulates your pleasure/reward centers. None of this is particularly "useful" but it feels nice.

That's a moral-like based decision not a value one.

[NYCfixie]

You are lucky husbands. My wife is into the four figure handbags (significant others know about N+1 too). They are heirloom pieces that she takes care of so that maybe the next generation will want/use them.

She has a Louis Vuitton that was her mother's, has been repaired (worn out straps), and will still last a very long time.
She has a Ferragamo (actually, a few) that should last a lifetime if cared for correctly. And has the shoes as well.
And I am sure there are many hidden away that I do not know about in addition to the 20 or so I do know about at the same quality level.

As to Coach (my sister worked for them for many years), they have changed from a classic maker of quality lifetime products to a company that chases the latest design trend and makes all their crap in China but sold at a premium so I am not surprised by your experience. My wife has a bag she got twenty years ago (the bucket bag?) and was a recently introduced "classic". When compared to the newer model, hers has thicker and better quality leather made in the USA in addition to solid brass buckles. The newer version has crappier thin leather with terrible tanning and crappy buckles that have been painted to look like brass. It's just not the same.

For me, I buy quality and hope I get a good value (i.e. I have some Brooks Brothers shirts that should be thread bare if you knew how old they are but they just last).

...Things like expensive handbags and watches may seem like they're just about the bling factor, and sure that's a component just as it is with a nice bike, but the good ones also offer a quality of material and construction that aren't just "for the sake of". When done well they offer durability, repairability, and other functional benefits (depending on the product) that will far surpass the cheap alternative. Using my wife and handbags as an example, after years of using cheap ones and replacing them once or twice a year she was gifted (not by me) a very nice bag. That was about 4 years ago. It still looks brand new and the company will repair any issues free of charge for the lifetime of the product. At the rate it's wearing I figure she'll get another 20 years out of it. Much better, IMO, than churning through 30 cheap purses over the same period of time. The same goes for watches. A cheap watch is disposable. A quality watch could be an heirloom.

Agree 100%.

I also think there's a weird middle ground on some things... purses for example. I bought my wife a Donnie and Burke (SP?) for Christmas a few years ago, it was around $200 or so (on sale if my memory is good) she used it for a while and then put it in the closet until next summer. The following summer she pulled it out and it had discolored itself in places! Looked like water damage. She had a several hundred dollar Coach bag that the strap fell apart on, they have a warranty/repair deal of some sort, but instead of just repairing or replacing the strap they gave her a certificate for the value of the bag to get a new one. They no longer had any of those straps. It was less than a year old - they never had any intentions to repair those bags.

And again, it's all relative. I'm sure $200/$300 purses, while stupid expensive in my mind, in the world of handbags they are equivalent to the $500 Allez in the world of bikes.

[NYCfixie]

I buy a stock or make a business decision on value.

And this is how I hope to retire at 50.

[Matthew Strongin]

You are lucky husbands. My wife is into the four figure handbags (significant others know about N+1 too). They are heirloom pieces that she takes care of so that maybe the next generation will want/use them.

She has a Louis Vuitton that was her mother's, has been repaired (worn out straps), and will still last a very long time.
She has a Ferragamo (actually, a few) that should last a lifetime if cared for correctly. And has the shoes as well.
And I am sure there are many hidden away that I do not know about in addition to the 20 or so I do know about at the same quality level.

As to Coach (my sister worked for them for many years), they have changed from a classic maker of quality lifetime products to a company that chases the latest design trend and makes all their crap in China but sold at a premium so I am not surprised by your experience. My wife has a bag she got twenty years ago (the bucket bag?) and was a recently introduced "classic". When compared to the newer model, hers has thicker and better quality leather made in the USA in addition to solid brass buckles. The newer version has crappier thin leather with terrible tanning and crappy buckles that have been painted to look like brass. It's just not the same.

For me, I buy quality and hope I get a good value (i.e. I have some Brooks Brothers shirts that should be thread bare if you knew how old they are but they just last).

I'm not that lucky*, my wife is very interested in watches and jewelry.

*Actually, I am that lucky, because my wife is a wonderful person, an amazing mother, and lets me buy more bikes than I need that I can ride longer than I should.

[NYCfixie]

I am in the same place as you. Lucky to have my wife/friend/partner in my life.

I'm not that lucky*, my wife is very interested in watches and jewelry.

*Actually, I am that lucky, because my wife is a wonderful person, an amazing mother, and lets me buy more bikes than I need that I can ride longer than I should.

[lumpy]

That's a moral-like based decision not a value one.

Not moral exactly. What I'm trying to get at is that I might not think Dura Ace is too expensive or excessive. I might just want something aesthetically different: Shiny campy! Or something I want for a whole different set of reasons. Like a nice clean Sante group. I guess what I was trying to say is these decisions are made on a much more complex set of axes than "value" vs. "utility" or what's "best". Because there's lots of bests. I agree with your point that we are not really making cost/benefit decisions.

[joosttx]

Not moral exactly. What I'm trying to get at is that I might not think Dura Ace is too expensive or excessive. I might just want something aesthetically different: Shiny campy! Or something I want for a whole different set of reasons. Like a nice clean Sante group. I guess what I was trying to say is these decisions are made on a much more complex set of axes than "value" vs. "utility" or what's "best". Because there's lots of bests. I agree with your point that we are not really making cost/benefit decisions.

Then value once again does not come into play.

[thollandpe]

Suck on this, from the middle shelf.



Pouring Whistle Pig down the sink is like throwing away a bike with Dura-Ace 7400 because it has downtube shifters.

[Mabouya]

That is not what I am saying at all. My point is value doesnt matter with stuff like bikes. You can say Ultegra which is a great value, etc, etc. But if you can afford Dura ace you buy dura ace unless some moral-like factor in your head tells you no. Value matters only in economics not in hobbies. I never bought a bike because of its good value. I buy the best bike I could afford. I buy a stock or make a business decision on value. Thats my point.

Value isn't measured simply in rational or dollars amounts. There can be all sorts of benefits, some easy to quantify, others much harder and not necessarily in pure functional terms.

Why do some folks purchase $80k cars, when a $30k car can transport them just as reliably and in equal comfort?

Clearly for some people there must be some benefits to $80k cars that allow them to justify the purchase.