Teach me to teach

[Ray]

more true words have never been spoken...

with my retailer's hat on...
The majority of riders are on a far more 'racy' bike than their riding style would dictate.
The emotional connection/baggage is what I call the "pro tour syndrome". (will need a new
name next year.) Heck, sometimes it's hard enough to avoid the blow back of suggesting
a Roubaix/Synapse/Pilot type bike to a rider buying their first road bike in 25 years!
It's like you just told them their pro contract isn't going to happen, the team has folded,
and the DS go fired.

-g

Can't you tell them that those bikes are JUST LIKE pro-tour bikes but are made to be more comfortable for people who aren't quite as young and flexible as pro-tour riders? And that an actual pro-tour bike would probably be hard on their back and prostate? I would think that most middle-aged guys, even unrealistic wanna-bes would understand that they don't want any MORE trouble for the old back and prostate.

No?

-Ray

[GrantM]

Can't you tell them that those bikes are JUST LIKE pro-tour bikes but are made to be more comfortable for people who aren't quite as young and flexible as pro-tour riders? And that an actual pro-tour bike would probably be hard on their back and prostate? I would think that most middle-aged guys, even unrealistic wanna-bes would understand that they don't want any MORE trouble for the old back and prostate.

No?

-Ray

The problem is that the purchase is about a search for some type of authenticity.
For the type we're describing, they're only emotionally interested in the 'real' one.
Buying the 'real deal' makes them feel like they're being included. Buying the 'right one'
would be an admission that they are an outsider, not fullfilling the fantasy.

(hey, did swoop hack my user ID and make this post????)

-g

[dbrk]

ahh ray...no. there's no point, really. the vast majority of these sales are to guys who have the passion to think about riding, watch the tour, and go out for an hour, rarely two. sell them what they want, i say, with all the help you can offer to ignite that leap from Outdoor magazine to actually being outdoors...and if they want to learn to ride then they'll have to study the pain, make crosses from lovers, throw roses in the rain, pray in vain...you get the idea. cycling hurts even when its comfortable. that's one of the differences between cycling and just riding a bike, non?

[Tom]

You're selling them their image, not your image. Sometimes some people seem to forget that.

[WadePatton]

ahh ray...no. there's no point, really... cycling hurts even when its comfortable. that's one of the differences between cycling and just riding a bike, non?

I like that, a precision concept of the difference. I forget these little things.

[dwightskin]

I'm planning on buying their unridden "Garage Queen" in 6 years.


If possible, complete the package with titanium bottle cages, size 43.5 shoes and XL helmet.



Dwight

[Ray]

ahh ray...no. there's no point, really. the vast majority of these sales are to guys who have the passion to think about riding, watch the tour, and go out for an hour, rarely two. sell them what they want, i say, with all the help you can offer to ignite that leap from Outdoor magazine to actually being outdoors...and if they want to learn to ride then they'll have to study the pain, make crosses from lovers, throw roses in the rain, pray in vain...you get the idea. cycling hurts even when its comfortable. that's one of the differences between cycling and just riding a bike, non?

That's too bad. But if it allows for a post with the best of Bruce tossed into a cycling thread, I say, let 'em eat cake, or buy the wrong bike, or whatever. I'll never forget buying my first fine road bike and being partially convinced by a wise old(er ... slightly) sage that I should buy one built for a combination of comfort and speed rather than just speed alone. It was a good sales pitch and a good decision and a great bike that saw me through nearly ten years of tons of riding and coulda take many more. Too bad that wisdom doesn't work with some folks, eh?

-Ray

[davids]

A good salesperson can get a customer to look at products in a new way. I find that when someone is enthusiastic about what they're selling (not just some of the stuff they're selling), actually listens & converses with me, is open and honest about their desire to make suggestions of things they think I might like, and doesn't pressure me to make a quick decision - I respond positively.

I'm shopping for some new eyeglasses right now, taking my time and checking out frames at various shops. Most of the time, when I say I'm "just looking" I get left alone. Which is fine.

But this morning, when I responded that way to a saleswoman, she asked, "Can I recommend a few frames to you?" She asked me, and I think that made the difference. So I said, "Sure" and she then asked me what I thought I wanted, listened to my reaction to the various frames she picked out, gave me her honest reactions and preferences, answered all my questions, and let me go on my way when I told her I was still shopping around. I left with her card, and she's got my name and the models of the few frames I really liked. It was a great interaction and I will definitely go back. She's almost certainly made the sale.

Is there a lesson in there for you? I think so - Find out what your customers think they want, but don't be afraid to offer them your knowledge. Just do it as a conversation - listen & react to their concerns, answer their questions, and give them space.

I'm sure there's a lot of folks who won't be moved. But I'm sure there are others who will.

[GrantM]

But this morning, when I responded that way to a saleswoman, she asked, "Can I recommend a few frames to you?" She asked me, and I think that made the difference. So I said, "Sure" and she then asked me what I thought I wanted, listened to my reaction to the various frames she picked out, gave me her honest reactions and preferences, answered all my questions, and let me go on my way when I told her I was still shopping around. .....

Is there a lesson in there for you?

so she suggested you get contacts?


no... seriously. I'd hire someone like that in a second.
don't get me wrong, there are lots of talented salespeople
and fitters in the biz. just not nearly enough doing exactly
what you just experienced. it's tough set of skills for a
23 year old bike racer who makes $12k a year to have a
good perspective on. our shop has about a dozen female sales
staff, and some of them are top sellers.

g

[Tom]

I think to be a good bike salesman you have to practically be a psychiatrist because most customers I see in bike shops are ding-dong loonies.

[Triskeliongirl]

Put them on a Cervelo RS. Its made to handle well with a more recreational posture, but still looks like a pro tour bike. Also, educate them about core strength. Give them a coupon for a re-fit in 6 months. By then they'll have lost some weight, gotten used to the bike and be ready to come in and buy new clothes too.

[Too Tall]

There is a culture of accomodation and lack of commitment to wisdom and expertise that pervades the credit card waving masses....there I said it.

I'll add some pic.s below of some guys and gals who are leaving on a 1200 kilometer ride, they will pedal all night sometimes. If you look closely these are by and large not racerboysngirlz. All body types are in the crowd and you'll see that d@mn near every bike is setup with bars close to saddle level maybe a bit lower and there is not a bar stool in sight yo.

What you boss makes you do is wrongheaded. Your shop has made a choice to give the customer what they think they want at any price and the end result will not be return customers and dedicated sports enthusiasts for reasons we both know. Suppose the shop explained how and why a properly setup bike works and (I hate this) show some pictures for fat/thin/bald/old/young riders on bike setups that do not look like ass and are proper and WILL be conducive to them progressing and getting everything they deserve out of the sport? What the heck? It's worth a shot.

Dewd, I nearly cried some yrs. back seeing something that speaks to this subject. We were riding in the Breton region of Fr. and near dusk saw a pack of old men riding out of town for what must have been their afterwork constitutional. Most were quite old, fat and trailing behind were the youngsters. Not a single one was riding an effin' barstool yo. They looked quite comfortable descending a steep hill and peddaling twords us. Just relating to you that this is something you need to teach.

Good luck with it. BTW - you are right...Jerkmo rules all.

Dear Jerk,

I work part time in a bike shop, and I fit people on road bikes as a regular part of that job.

Your views about bike fit are, sir, entirely correct. The problem is, if I were to put them into practice, I would lose my job. Our client base is fat, out of shape, rich, white dudes (a whole other issue). If I set them up properly, our customers would walk. My boss would be pissed.

In an effort to keep my job, I begin with the "bar stool" fit because that's what they want. I then tell them to come back after they've ridden 500 miles for "adjustment". Problem is, they don't come back. I feel personally responsible for unleashing evil upon the world - it's as if I am doomed to give birth to ugly children daily.

What should I do? Is it possible to fit people properly right out of the gate if you educate them in the process? If so, of what does such an education consist?

Regards,

Caleb

[Triskeliongirl]

I have to say that I don't understand what I sense on this board is the idea that a recreational fit or rando fit (bars in the 0-2 cm range below the saddle), 45 degree back angle, vs a flat back, is a 'bar stool' fit or even a bad thing. It depends what the person's goals are. If the person wants to be a competitive racer, no its not the right fit, but if the person wants to ride recreationally, i.e. club rides, events, rando rides, get to work safely, etc., and they lack flexibility for whatever reason, then it is the right fit.

BUT, then you also need to guide them to a bike that's designed to handle well with that kind of fit. What's wrong with the trek pilot if it suits the rider's goals? Start a guy on a pilot, let him ride a lot cuz he's comfortable, lose some weight, strengthen his core, and then come back in a couple years and upgrade to a racing bike. Sell a person a bike (and a fit) that lets them be the best they can be on the bike today, that is what gets repeat business and makes better cyclists. Its not only about racing.

[Too Tall]

I think we are on the same page actually.
My personal background is with long distance cycling and USCF racing both using very similar bikes setup slightly diff. thus I don't generally think of your Trek as a solution not that it is not the right thaing yo. it's just not at the top of my list. Truly, honestly think and was posting some mental pics. of old french fatmen on bikes to illustrate that folks of all shapes and in all levels of fitness have been put onto sensible bikes that fit and function for well over 100 yrs. that look alot like...well...a normal road racing bike. That's no coincidence.

I have to say that I don't understand what I sense on this board is the idea that a recreational fit or rando fit (bars in the 0-2 cm range below the saddle), 45 degree back angle, vs a flat back, is a 'bar stool' fit or even a bad thing. It depends what the person's goals are. If the person wants to be a competitive racer, no its not the right fit, but if the person wants to ride recreationally, i.e. club rides, events, rando rides, get to work safely, etc., and they lack flexibility for whatever reason, then it is the right fit.

BUT, then you also need to guide them to a bike that's designed to handle well with that kind of fit. What's wrong with the trek pilot if it suits the rider's goals? Start a guy on a pilot, let him ride a lot cuz he's comfortable, lose some weight, strengthen his core, and then come back in a couple years and upgrade to a racing bike. Sell a person a bike (and a fit) that lets them be the best they can be on the bike today, that is what gets repeat business and makes better cyclists. Its not only about racing.

[Chance Legstrong]

When I fit people, I would hold out a box of dunkin donuts and ask them to reach for them. if they could reach for them w/out having to struggle and come up out of their position, i knew i was on to something.



We enable people to continue being lazy..."here, this bike and fit will make you feel warm and fuzzy".

blech!

[Triskeliongirl]

I do agree with you Too Tall (its more other posters that seem to have disdain for the recreational fit, not just in this thread but in others as well), but my point is that for someone that knows they don't want a big drop between saddle and bars, won't the bike look better and handle better if its designed with the idea that the rider will have less weight on the front end (at least that is what cervelo claims is a diff in the design of the R3 vs RS, I honestly don't know that much about the trek pilot, but I can tell you the RS handles like a dream with a recreational fit).

If the rider wants their bars higher, then isn't it better to build the bike with a sloping top tube and longer head tube, rather than putting a huge stack of spacers and highly angled stem on there?

I also came from the other side, I started out touring and commuting, and only when our kids grew up started to do club riding where everyone is on racing bikes. To me my RS is the best of both worlds, takes advantage of all the technology of the race bikes, but accomodates my position. I just think more folks in the group we are discussing should be sold this kind of bike, that's all.

[Too Tall]

Dang, the interweb is messing with my head today.

Caleb. Do something, make it right.

[Triskeliongirl]

Maybe I am not following you, but I don't understand how selling someone a bike with a fit they are not ready for does anything to make them stronger. Give them a bike and a fit they can ride today, and they will get stronger.

I think you are just very flexible, so you can't imagine what its like not to be. If you aren't flexible how do you get there? If you can't assume a racing position cuz your belly gets in the way, how do you get rid of the belly? I can't think of a better way than sending them out the door on a bike they can ride. Yeh, nutritional counseling and advice on core work would help too, but surely not offering them donuts!

We enable people to continue being lazy..."here, this bike and fit will make you feel warm and fuzzy".

blech!

[Z3c]

Caleb,

Been doing fits for a few years now and you are spot-on in your thinking. The way I look at it, by setting such folks up in a comfortable position, they may actually ride and maybe become a little healthier.. Some days it is hard to find my rose colored shades but most days it works for me.

Frankly, this is why I get so bored with the hating bike fit threads here; there are a myriad of reasons for people to have fits that don't look like Boonen. Injury recovery, beginner, and some just want to be comfortable and ride when they get home from a long day at work.. Beginners get hammered by their self-proclaimed expert friends that tell them they need a longer and lower stem. The reality is that 80-90% of the bikes you will sell/fit are for recreational riders, folks who are just happy to have the chance to sneak out for an hour-long ride while the kids take a nap.. I find it really rewarding when one of those folks comes in and is beaming proudly because they were able to ride for 2 hours and average 16mph without their back hurting. Look at in a similar vein and you just might find a new source of motivation. On those occasions when you are fitting a serious rider you will be extra motivated and that works well for both parties.

If our shop catered to racer we would out of business; they all want a steep discount and free labor because they "buy so much stuff". Reality is that the average "white guy" buying an Ultegra equipped Roubaix pays the bills. There would be no shop and no sponsored racers if it wasn't for those guys..

C'mon Chance, you know the reality..

Scott

Dear Jerk,

I work part time in a bike shop, and I fit people on road bikes as a regular part of that job.

Your views about bike fit are, sir, entirely correct. The problem is, if I were to put them into practice, I would lose my job. Our client base is fat, out of shape, rich, white dudes (a whole other issue). If I set them up properly, our customers would walk. My boss would be pissed.

In an effort to keep my job, I begin with the "bar stool" fit because that's what they want. I then tell them to come back after they've ridden 500 miles for "adjustment". Problem is, they don't come back. I feel personally responsible for unleashing evil upon the world - it's as if I am doomed to give birth to ugly children daily.

What should I do? Is it possible to fit people properly right out of the gate if you educate them in the process? If so, of what does such an education consist?

Regards,

Caleb

[steve garro]

the day i sold my bike shop was the 2nd best day of my life, right behind riding my bike through the woods to a beautiful meadow full of my best friends & marrying my beautiful wife. just sayin'. Steve.