my brief ride on windows 10

[edoz]

If you're into this sort of thing, the new Nvidia drivers for Win 10 are worth a few FPS in some games. Also, Intel and AMD both have said that any new processors from now on will not support anything earlier than 10.

[Scott G.]

Windows 7 Enterprise, does not do the automagical upgrade.
Only the home versions with the identity theft sdk do that.

Linux = Rivendell, friction shifting for your computer.

[NYCfixie]

Linux = Rivendell, friction shifting for your computer.

This is simply wrong. Linux was the stripped down Porsche race car. They are now adding power windows, aircon, GPS, etc. but it is still not ready for the average end user.

I'd disagree with this. Most linux versions are one-click install and pretty much everything works outta the box. It's no harder than installing windows 10. A few years ago you needed to be able to write code to get linux installed but that's totally changed over the past few generations and the Ubuntu stuff is to thank.

If that's too much hard work then you can buy a system pre-installed and ready to roll from System76 - Ubuntu Laptops, Desktops, and Servers

Modern linux is really good for your average computer user but it needs to shed it's reputation for being difficult.

You are talking about install and the viability of the OS. I am talking about overall long term end user support.

If you are a sysadmin or a hobbyist you can get all the support you need which is a lot less than the average computer user needs. Simply, the Linux end user support infrastructure is not there. Tell me when the average user can get this cheap-ass 10 year old ink jet printer (or scanner) to work with Linux. Until then Linux is not appropriate for the average user.

Having supported thousands of users, I know they can all do it but also know they need support to be available when they need it. Again, who are you going to call for Linux end user support for the average home user?

[Scott G.]

This is simply wrong. Linux was the stripped down Porsche race car. They are now adding power windows, aircon, GPS, etc. but it is still not ready for the average end user.

Chmod 777 hidden.random.config
rm -r *.*

I miss System 7

[Tristan]

who are you going to call for Linux end user support for the average home user?

I think we're debating Campag vs Shimano here but you should try plugging a 10 year old cheap-ass inkjet printer into a modern linux OS - you might be surprised.

For the price of a Win10 install I'm sure you could have a few of your questions answered by your local Geeks On Wheels.

[NYCfixie]

I think we're debating Campag vs Shimano here.

I will agree to disagree. No more VSalon flame wars for me even if not bike related.

[Drew]

I think we're debating Campag vs Shimano here but you should try plugging a 10 year old cheap-ass inkjet printer into a modern linux OS - you might be surprised.

For the price of a Win10 install I'm sure you could have a few of your questions answered by your local Geeks On Wheels.

XKCD is my favorite comic.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/circuit_diagram.png

[TTX1]

I've got a friend who happens to be an engineer. Top of his class, multiple patents, writes code, etc.

He was tricked by the intentionally, deliberately deceptive MS update interface that effectively swapped the classic "x" ( for no thanks) to "yes, please update and surrender".

He was livid, and noted that healthy companies do not need to employ such shenanigans, but will concede that Win10 is better or somehow less bad than the prior system.

It sounds like he's in good company with Steve and Richard and many others...

For my part, I'm still bothered by the DOS 6 debacle. Never forget, never forgive.

How about the time MS introduced the ribbon UI in Outlook and replaced a familiar nested menu structure with a new UI that required many more clicks to achieve the same commands?

I could go on and on about the stupidity of MS.

Instead I'll simply say: Happy Mac user for many years, no problems.

I run two XP machines at home and when the time comes I'll migrate to Mac and run any old programs I might still need in Parallels.

[sk_tle]

This is simply wrong. Linux was the stripped down Porsche race car. They are now adding power windows, aircon, GPS, etc. but it is still not ready for the average end user.

Cars analogy never works.

You are talking about install and the viability of the OS. I am talking about overall long term end user support.

If you are a sysadmin or a hobbyist you can get all the support you need which is a lot less than the average computer user needs. Simply, the Linux end user support infrastructure is not there.

You can purchase support for most linux distributions. Their dedicated community forums offer supports that is often greater than most expensive support from commercial softwares.

Tell me when the average user can get this cheap-ass 10 year old ink jet printer (or scanner) to work with Linux. Until then Linux is not appropriate for the average user.

For what it's worth I have a 16y old usb scanner that I can only use with a linux or BSD computer. Support from windows ended with windows 98 and 2000. It still works great, why should I replace it ? If anyting it is quite the opposite. Sometimes some brand new hardware are not liinux compatible until some geek start to have a look at it. Using linux require doing a wee bit of research prior to buying hardware but if you are cautious enough there are not big hardware support issues.

Having supported thousands of users, I know they can all do it but also know they need support to be available when they need it. Again, who are you going to call for Linux end user support for the average home user?

You'll do the same as with windows or mac os. Call the support from the vendor and/or a company offering support from it. There is really no difference.

I run two XP machines at home and when the time comes I'll migrate to Mac and run any old programs I might still need in Parallels.

Unless those XP machines are not connected to a network the time has come already and I urge you to shut them down. Microsoft has dropped support since april 2014 and do not provide any more security updates. Your XP computers might already be part of a botnet that is used to do criminal activities without you knowing it. In fact anyone still connecting an XP machine or any unsupported device/OS (this applies to old smartphones, routers or even TVs and other "connected consumer devices" ) to the internet is not showing due respect to other internet users as he is providing digital weapons to criminal organizations and hostile nations/armies.

[NYCfixie]

Cars analogy never works.


You can purchase support for most linux distributions. Their dedicated community forums offer supports that is often greater than most expensive support from commercial softwares.

For what it's worth I have a 16y old usb scanner that I can only use with a linux or BSD computer. Support from windows ended with windows 98 and 2000. It still works great, why should I replace it ? If anyting it is quite the opposite. Sometimes some brand new hardware are not liinux compatible until some geek start to have a look at it. Using linux require doing a wee bit of research prior to buying hardware but if you are cautious enough there are not big hardware support issues.


You'll do the same as with windows or mac os. Call the support from the vendor and/or a company offering support from it. There is really no difference.

Can you walk into a Linux store at the mall and ask for help? Can your brother/sister/mother/father/grandmother/grandfather/aunt/uncle/son/daughter/etc?

I seem to remember both Apple and Microsoft have that covered.

If someone is having basic trouble with a Linux OS, I am not sure the normally very technical forums are going to be of much help.


You are answering the need from a unix sysadmin role. I am answering as a person who has led end user support teams for more than 20 years. We have different perspectives which is a good thing. I do not agree with you but I respect your opinion. It is obvious that you do not agree with my opinion but I hope you can at least respect it.

[sk_tle]

Can you walk into a Linux store at the mall and ask for help?

Well, no but then again if you installed a linux os on your computer you have been teached where to ask for help elsewhere.

Can your brother/sister/mother/father/grandmother/grandfather/aunt/uncle/son/daughter/etc?

My experience with people relying on this kind of help on mac/windows computer is they end up much worse.

If someone is having basic trouble with a Linux OS, I am not sure the normally very technical forums are going to be of much help.


You are answering the need from a unix sysadmin role. I am answering as a person who has led end user support teams for more than 20 years. We have different perspectives which is a good thing. I do not agree with you but I respect your opinion. It is obvious that you do not agree with my opinion but I hope you can at least respect it.

I don't talk only as a unix sysadmin. I've seen people not at all knowledgeable in computer getting fed up of asking assistance to diagnose issues with their windows instance and they are now at their 4 or 5th ubuntu upgrade from the same original install. The spectrum of users had broaden largely in the last 10 years and what you describes as "very technical forums" has become much more than that. I'm not saying linux is necessarily for everybody but anyone enthusiast and willing to learn something new can become autonomous with such a system. The learning curve is actually quite fast as nothing is hidden.

Most people in the qwerty/english speaking world don't understand how bad a standard windows desktop simply because the microsoft standard keymaps are terrible for languages using accentuated or non english script letters. Sur they provide a tool to create your own keymap but most people have never heard of it or because It dept don't allow them to install a custom keymap in the workplace. If you can't install the same keymap everywhere you just end up getting used to deal with that crap without complaining.

[NYCfixie]

I'm not saying linux is necessarily for everybody but anyone enthusiast and willing to learn something new can become autonomous with such a system.

You just helped prove my point. You are describing the 5% (and not the 95%) of end users.

I respectfully disagree with you and am done.
#elvishasleftthebuilding

[ryker]

Mods please wiki under mansplaining.

[TTX1]

Unless those XP machines are not connected to a network the time has come already and I urge you to shut them down. Microsoft has dropped support since april 2014 and do not provide any more security updates.

While MS announced the end to ongoing support, they do, in fact, continue to push out updates from time to time.

In any case, I never relied on MS to secure these machines...

That's like getting health insurance, as well as treatment, from your drug dealer - A level of vertical integration I've never been prepared to accept.

[sk_tle]

You just helped prove my point. You are describing the 5% (and not the 95%) of end users.

I respectfully disagree with you and am done.
#elvishasleftthebuilding

Your point was that linux wasn't ready for the average user. The reality is the opposite: the average user is not ready for linux on a desktop computer (and probably never will). It doesn't have anything to do with the qualities or default of linux or the other operating system. It is simply an issue about inertia and brand image in the desktop market and people raising the very same point everytime linux is mentionned is one of the reason linux will never reach huge shares on the desktop. It is entirely psychological. I'm ok with that as long as people don't spread FUD.

On the other hand millions of people are using some flavors of linux on their television, smartphone, and other consumer devices. The fact is people can accept anything if we don't tell them what is under the hood.

[Tom]

In my opinion, if it gets to the point where you have to call Microsoft or pretty much any of the consumer desktop software vendors selling products for Windows you're already doomed. In my experience that has never resulted in problem resolution. The support model for Windows is generally always to call the enthusiast that you know if a Google search doesn't reveal the answer. I am not sure how that's different from the Linux desktop model, not having any experience with a Linux distro vendor except as an enterprise user asking about a server instance.

That said, I run Windows 10 on everything personal except for the machine that isn't booted up long enough for their, as my buddy in Info Security calls it, involuntary install malware to run. It works well enough for me, I guess jumping from 7 to 10 was lucky. Some day I'll leave that other old machine up long enough to upgrade except I think that act will make it overheat for the final time.

[mmoore]

limited experience with w10 at home but our printer stopped working, and our start menu/taskbar doesn't work 90% of the time with no real fix. not sure why that's happening, and we don't use the computer enough for it to matter.

[fiveller]

I'm amused by all the crap I see spewed about Linux.

I've been using Linux as a primary desktop for 12 years. If you think it's like friction shifting, (I'm try to say this as politely and none troll-like as I can) you seriously don't have a clue and you really shouldn't be stating opinions about it. From high performance computing (virtually every computer in the top 500 is running Linux)*, to running about 75-80% of the internet** to Android. It's all Linux.

And you know what else is based on Linux? ChromeOS, the operating system for Chromebooks that now outsell Macbooks ***

Incidentally, I solve all my Linux problems the same way I solve my Microsoft and Apple problems: there's a wealth of information available on the internet. You can solve almost any problem more quickly and easily that way. In fact, that's the way both Microsoft and Apple want you to solve your problems - e.g. the Apple forums.

If Linux isn't your bag, that's cool - but make sure your opinion is an informed one.


* Operating system Family / Linux | TOP5 Supercomputer Sites

** Can the Internet exist without Linux? | ZDNet

*** Chromebooks outsold Macs for the first time in the US | The Verge

**** For those who have older hardware, Linux supports it very well. See Puppy Linux, DSL, etc.

[Bob Ross]

Linux while great is not ready for prime time and the average user. Who are they going to call or email when something stops working?

There's someone at Microsoft I can call when Windows does crazy shit?!?!

[defspace]

I have never contacted Microsoft for any of my Windows problems. Internet message boards have been my go-to for troubleshooting.

This thread makes me want to try Linux.