Caroline Kennedy --- 2020

[ABiCi]

I'm finally please to see folks here stating why they didn't like Hillary. As much and as deeply as those hate Trump, that's exactly how I feel about the Clintons. They are the swamp.

So I was voting AGAINST Hillary, no matter who the Republican nominee was. Who knew it would be Trump? But he did win, so yeah, he's my President. I didn't care for Obama, but yeah, he was my President too.

I might have considered voting for Bernie. But that choice went away. Screwed by that same swamp.

Earlier is was brought up as to why would Trump bother (to run again)?

I'm more concerned as to which potential great President down the road may NOT choose to run after seeing the treatment Trump has received...


I'd love to see someone worth voting for from the Dems.

How do you feel that Trump has done clearing the swamp?

[mzilliox]

So now we expand the criticism to your fellow Americans who excised their freedom to vote, freedom of choice.

Thank God for Democracy.

The real joke is that those who didn't want him elected F'd it up and lost. That anger is being projected to the winning side.
You didn't want Trump to win? Maybe you should have done more convince the "idiots"not to vote for him.

FYI: the country isn't doing as bad as some think, now is it?

I understand why folks voted for Trump, no biggie. I'm telling you who the rest of the world is making fun of. They blame folks who vote. when you go elsewhere, and politics comes up, they ask why you voted for Trump.

Progress or status of the country is subject to the metrics you use to measure. By many metrics, we are falling behind and getting worse. Sure, we have a big GDP, always will, thats what a fresh piece of land and slaves gets ya. But we are not as smart as we once were by world standards, not as healthy, not as "free". not as likely to do as well as our parents did, not as likely to live as long as our parents did, still fighting for equal rights for non white males, getting dirtier and dirtier in the environment, less neighborly folks, less bike friendly drivers, more people on the rivers with less fish. So all in all, Im not sure how we are doing. id say its a mixed report. we will always be doing fine in regards to economy, theres a lot of money and business here. that translates to a relatively good quality of life for most. but for a lot of factors, other places are well ahead in their ability to innovate and react to reality, to now, to modernity. other places seem to acknowledge what it means to be human in a society where actual physical work will be a thing of the past in my lifetime. we however do not speak of this future.

but sure, cruuise control and all of that is comfy. and nice. and probably about the best humanity is capable of right now

[mzilliox]

also, im not angry, nor do i fixate on this winning thing. How petty, how boring, please stop insinuating i care about such nonsense. winning was not the point. if republicans had a decent human as their candidate, Id be all for it.
what we have is a ridiculous experiment. we have a terrible example of a human a president, and that embarasses, disappoints, and confuses me. its not anger. im not really the angry type.

[Corso]

How do you feel that Trump has done clearing the swamp?

Considering he kept a Clinton out of the White House, I couldn't be happier.

[ides1056]

But you have to admit, no president has been treated this way. Yes, I know, many feel it's deserved.
I'll respect that and call it a day.

No president has acted like such a whiney baby. Seriously. He has deserved every ounce of opprobrium heaped on him, and then some.

[ides1056]

FYI: the country isn't doing as bad as some think, now is it?[/QUOTE]

150 dead a day from overdoses.

Still no clean water in Flint.

If you are a black male...

[ABiCi]

Considering he kept a Clinton out of the White House, I couldn't be happier.

You have set a depressingly low bar for your happiness and it is hard to believe that you actually care about the swamp if this is so.

[Corso]

You have set a depressingly low bar for your happiness and it is hard to believe that you actually care about the swamp if this is so.

I was asked a question. I answered. If you feel you're in a position to judge me, so be it.

I thought this thread was about 2020 challengers. So let me ask the gallery: Who of the declared do you stand behind?

[ABiCi]

I was asked a question. I answered. If you feel you're in a position to judge me, so be it.

I thought this thread was about 2020 challengers. So let me ask the gallery: Who of the declared do you stand behind?

If you are happy to stand by your answer I am happy to stand by my judgement of it.

There isn't going to be a presidential candidate that I would happily stand behind. For one, I'm an Australian/Italian citizen living in Germany so I'm out there with the rest of the world that only get to suffer from your country's dominant (though diminishing) influence on world affairs without having any say in its political leadership, not to mention that I'm so far off the political spectrum (for need of a simple label, autonomist anarchist) that there couldn't possibly be a candidate that appealed.

You see I do think we need to "clear out the swamp", on a global level. The problem is that if you are voting for a candidate from a major political party (or are voting for a billionaire property developer...) no matter what country you live in, you are voting for someone who is necessarily nose deep in the swap with no interest in making any real change to the status quo, no matter what their rhetoric is.

If I did have a say I'd be voting for the lesser of two evils when it came down to it. It is hard to imagine the Democrats will come up with a worse candidate than Clinton this time. She was the lesser of two evils last time, but probably the worst candidate that Democrats could have come up with given the desperate discontent within the electorate. They needed someone to harness that, not personify what was wrong with the state of politics. That's not to say that Trump was in any way a reasonable candidate to vote for for those with dissatisfaction, though. Anyway, I don't think the situation has changed all that much, but I'm yet to see anyone who has announced a candidacy yet who really fits the bill for the Democrats.

[Corso]

If you are happy to stand by your answer I am happy to stand by my judgement of it.

There isn't going to be a presidential candidate that I would happily stand behind. For one, I'm an Australian/Italian citizen living in Germany so I'm out there with the rest of the world that only get to suffer from your country's dominant (though diminishing) influence on world affairs without having any say in its political leadership, not to mention that I'm so far off the political spectrum (for need of a simple label, autonomist anarchist) that there couldn't possibly be a candidate that appealed.

You see I do think we need to "clear out the swamp", on a global level. The problem is that if you are voting for a candidate from a major political party (or are voting for a billionaire property developer...) no matter what country you live in, you are voting for someone who is necessarily nose deep in the swap with no interest in making any real change to the status quo, no matter what their rhetoric is.

I'd be voting for the lesser of two evils when it came down to it. It is hard to imagine the Democrats will come up with a worse candidate than Clinton this time.

Thanks Rob. Too bad you and the rest of the world have to "suffer" from all the money and lives our country has given to make the world a better place. My father served in the Army in Germany, I doubt he had as much fun there as you seemingly are.

Your last line speaks the unfortunate truth: we often have to choose between the Lessor of 2 evils. I'm all for a serious 3rd party here, we need more options.

[ABiCi]

Thanks Rob. Too bad you and the rest of the world have to "suffer" from all the money and lives our country has given to make the world a better place. My father served in the Army in Germany, I doubt he had as much fun there as you seemingly are.

Your last line speaks the unfortunate truth: we often have to choose between the Lessor of 2 evils. I'm all for a serious 3rd party here, we need more options.

He probably didn't have as much fun as I'm having, no.

The US is the lesser of two evils when it comes to a world order dominated by Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. We may even wish for the good old days when our new Chinese overlords are holding sway. Still, the lesser of two evils is still an evil...

[ericpmoss]

There is essentially no one in government today who would enact a Marshall Plan. So yes, *that* America did some great things for the world. America The Government has since then continued to lay claim to that legacy, but betrays it all the time, under every President and every Congress -- some more, some less. Guatemala, Honduras, Chile, Iran, Philippines, Timor, Iraq, and a host of others can attest that the pretty words used by American policy makers are mostly lies told the American people so that we'll continue to defend it. We the people can be really great, but the people at the top really suck. Now they are lying like hell about what is happening in Venezuela, and only John Bolton was honest enough to say it's about taking their oil for "our" oil companies. That, by the way, is a war crime, if not a crime against humanity, which is why he wants the US out of any international court system.

These same people are the ones telling the rest of us what is even allowed for discussion, and what candidates are "serious". I say, sharpen the pitchforks and fuck them. We have every opportunity to pull the fat out of the fire, but it won't happen with half-measures against global warming and species loss and pollution. It won't happen with incrementalism about wealth concentration and the buying of the government by billionaires, whether they call themselves conservative, liberal or "centrist".

[Dallas Tex]

the us is the lesser of two evils when it comes to a world order dominated by nazi germany or soviet russia. We may even wish for the good old days when our new chinese overlords are holding sway. Still, the lesser of two evils is still an evil...

bullsh1t !!

[GrantM]

You have set a depressingly low bar for your happiness and it is hard to believe that you actually care about the swamp if this is so.

As a Canadian neighbour (albeit one with an undergrad degree in both U.S. History and Political Science)
in 2020 I'd settle for most any President that cared about the difference between the truth and lies.
That's about as low as the bar gets, and we don't have that now.

-g

[BBB]

citizens of New Zealand

Pesky Kiwis. Can't take them anywhere...

[ABiCi]

bullsh1t !!

Such an eloquent response.

How did Saddam Hussein come to power in Iraq? How did the Shah come to power in Iran? How much funds and weapons did the US provide to both sides simultaneously during the Iran-Iraq war? How many civilian victims are there of US drone bomb attacks all across the world? How many countries have used atomic weapons against civilians? How's the torture and indefinite illegal detention going in Guantanamo Bay? Why does the US exempt itself from the International Criminal Court? How did Pinochet come to power in Chile? What's the US track record in Haiti? Or Panama? Or Honduras? Or Nicaragua? Or the whole bloody continent of South America? How much napalm did the US dump on Vietnam? How much carpet bombing did the US do in Cambodia? What's the US record of involvement and support for dictatorships in the Philippines and Indonesia? Why does the US constantly veto UN resolutions condemning the rapid expansion of Israeli settlements on occupied territories?

How is the global capitalist system, under US-led institutions the WTO, IMF and World Bank, doing for most people? Global inequality is rising as states across the world are forced to deregulate their economies, cut taxes for the rich, suppress trade unions, privatise and outsource government services and slash spending on education and health in the name of austerity.

Why has the US constantly hampered international efforts to achieve consensus on combating climate change?

The US constantly meddles in the affairs of the world to pursue its own interests. On every continent there are examples of the US deposing democratically elected governments, being involved in extrajudicial killings, and propping up and supporting dictatorships and human rights abusers when it was in the US's interests to do so. The US has overseen an international world order that has been increasingly redistributing wealth in to the hands of the few, stripping away protections for workers and protections for the environment. The US acts as international police officer, judge, jury and executioner, while refusing to acknowledge the international institutions that might hold it to account for its own human rights and war crime abuses.

Still going to tell me this is bullshit? That the US is a benign force for global good? That we should all just be happy that US isn't as bad as the possible alternatives and ignore how bad it has been and continues to be for millions of people all around the world?

[Corso]

Rob, I know you live in Germany. I suppose that country has a perfect history when it comes to world affairs. Interesting choice.

You forgot to mention we have a military base on the dark side of the moon, which we secretly colonized.

For everything you've listed, there is an argument. I don't have the energy to waste on all the charges. Since you seem to have the time, why don't you try to list all the good the US has done, or can't you see anything? Perhaps start a new thread?

I'm actually surprised you visit this American based discussion site, feeling the way you do.

[ABiCi]

Rob, I know you live in Germany. I suppose that country has a perfect history when it comes to world affairs. Interesting choice.

You forgot to mention we have a military base on the dark side of the moon, which we secretly colonized.

For everything you've listed, there is an argument. I don't have the energy to waste on all the charges. Since you seem to have the time, why don't you try to list all the good the US has done, or can't you see anything? Perhaps start a new thread?

I'm actually surprised you visit this American based discussion site, feeling the way you do.

Of course Germany doesn't have a perfect history. Or a perfect present. No country does. At least these days the country is taking on hundreds of thousands of refugees from Syria, leading the world in the transition to renewable energy sources, providing universal health care for the entire population... I've got to live somewhere, there are much worse places than here.

You can deflect with reference to other countries, or to fictional conspiracy theories all you like, you can assure me that the decisions to install and prop up Pinochet, Hussein, the Shah, Suharto, Marcos, Duvalier etc. have explanations, you can say that the napalm, the nukes, the carpet bombing, the drone strikes were all means justified by ends. That helps maintain the narrative you would like to believe about the US. It doesn't really convince much of the rest of the world, though.

And sure, it could have been worse. But better than worse does not necessarily mean good. And that's all I said, that the US is the lesser of two evils. Daltex's "bullshit" and your assurances of explanations without providing any haven't convinced my I'm wrong about that.

[GrantM]

I'm actually surprised you visit this American based discussion site.

it's really based in France.

-g

[ABiCi]

it's really based in France.

-g

Damn, I'm going to have to leave now. I like bikes more than i dislike US foreign policy, but the French...? That might be a step too far.