It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[mzilliox]

Dont be confused, trust your instincts, the facts are already in front of you. it was exaggeration, as again, none of us were there, so pretending to know their intentions is pretending.
and Andrew Jackson was 9 when he signed the declaration, James Monroe 18.
but really i was being an idiot about it, changing their ages however doesnt change the point, we still dont know what they were thinking

What???

While there were some who were younger, I don't know of any who were 18 years old. As for the drunk part....I won't even dignify that....

Age of some key Founding Fathers at the time of the Declaration of Independence.

Alexander Hamilton, 21
James Madison, 25
John Jay, 30
Thomas Jefferson, 33
John Adams, 40
George Washington, 44

But since the Constitution was ratified in 1788 you can add 22 years to those numbers.

[bigbill]

On my drive to work I listen to central or left leaning news. On my way home I listen to Fox or far right news/commentators. I do it almost every day so I can see the juxtaposition of what stories make the headlines. It's remarkable.

When I was in the military, I had a SIPR (secret internet) computer on my desk. I could see the open source news and the raw coverage of world events. Just the facts. Later I would watch the news networks to see how it was reported. Lots of slants and interpretations in the networks, stuff they have no clue about but will still fill in the blanks so it grabs attention when reported. I really can't take fox news, but I like Fox Business. I have coffee with Maria each morning before work.

[Saab2000]

Later I would watch the news networks to see how it was reported. Lots of slants and interpretations in the networks, stuff they have no clue about but will still fill in the blanks so it grabs attention when reported. I really can't take fox news, but I like Fox Business. I have coffee with Maria each morning before work.

Two points....

One, does Fox Business still include Lou Dobbs? He’s one of their village idiots and can’t be trusted to report anything responsibly.

Second, your point about someone having no clue but filling in the blanks to grab attention sounds an awful lot like 99.9% of what is reported on the Boeing MAX situation. The reporting is usually abysmal and full of bad information. Media often sell fear and uncertainty, not news. Again, follow the money. These are for-profit companies.

I digress.

My point is that very often people get their information from a source that reflects and reinforces their existing world view, not from one that challenges them or presents new or different perspectives.

[davids]

When I was in the military, I had a SIPR (secret internet) computer on my desk. I could see the open source news and the raw coverage of world events. Just the facts. Later I would watch the news networks to see how it was reported. Lots of slants and interpretations in the networks, stuff they have no clue about but will still fill in the blanks so it grabs attention when reported. I really can't take fox news, but I like Fox Business. I have coffee with Maria each morning before work.

I don't know if this is an attack on "The Media".

But I have the privilege to count several very well-respected print journalists among my friends. And I can tell you that they are very dedicated, and work constantly and diligently, to transmit the facts. They are often - no, usually - working to craft and transmit complicated and nuanced information on very tight deadlines. They do their best, and their jobs are difficult and stressful.

Politicians' attacks on these professionals are damaging to the fabric of our society.

I am not saying that all the people who we read or listen to work to the standards these people do. But I'm betting that most aspire to be the kinds of journalists my friends are.

[Saab2000]

I don't know if this is an attack on "The Media".

But I have the privilege to count several very well-respected print journalists among my friends. And I can tell you that they are very dedicated, and work constantly and diligently, to transmit the facts. They are often - no, usually - working to craft and transmit complicated and nuanced information on very tight deadlines. They do their best, and their jobs are difficult and stressful.

Politicians' attacks on these professionals are damaging to the fabric of our society.

I am not saying that all the people who we read or listen to work to the standards these people do. But I'm betting that most aspire to be the kinds of journalists my friends are.

A good friend of mine is also a journalist by trade, and for years worked for the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. He has since left and now flies for a living, which is how I know him. He's also a really bright guy and wants to peddle truth.

He's also a cyclist, amateur frame builder and a member here though he rarely posts. I hope he reads this!

I think you're right about most of them wanting to report facts and good stories. Where, then, does it go wrong? It seems it would be taking contracts from companies that have a set agenda and I'm talking mostly about Fox News here, which is clearly anything but "Fair and Balanced". So when folks there whine about something I'm not likely to take them seriously. They took the blood money and their journalistic integrity is gone.

[davids]

Where, then, does it go wrong? It seems it would be taking contracts from companies that have a set agenda and I'm talking mostly about Fox News here, which is clearly anything but "Fair and Balanced". So when folks there whine about something I'm not likely to take them seriously. They took the blood money and their journalistic integrity is gone.

It doesn't go all that wrong, unless you're looking for reasons to discredit the Fourth Estate. It's easy to endlessly nitpick.

Unless, of course, you're talking about organizations who design their operations to further a particular agenda or simply to attract readers/viewers/clicks. Those organizations suck.

And here's your most recent reference to track degrees of suckiness: https://www.adfontesmedia.com/wp-con...d-1200x765.jpg

[72gmc]

It doesn't go all that wrong, unless you're looking for reasons to discredit the Fourth Estate. It's easy to endlessly nitpick.

There's a lot of criticism and cynicism right now from people who aren't being honest about the role of journalism, or their reasons to fear it.

It's good to remember that, back in the 90's, RM paid cable providers to feature content from his entertainment company with news in the name. Cable providers did not pay him, as they did CNN and others. His entertainers have been coat-tailing on the earned trust of actual journalists ever since.

[King Of Dirk]

It's interesting that Speaker Pelosi told reporters after the vote that she intends to delay formal, physical delivery of the articles of impeachment to the Senate until Democrats can be assured a “fair process” in the upper chamber.

Speaker Pelosi has no authority in the Senate, and just as she and Congressman Nadler reminded Republicans that the House may conduct impeachment proceedings as it (specifically the majority) sees fit, well, sauce for the goose and all of that. Further, the Constitution states, in relevant part, that "the Senate shall have the sole power to try all Impeachments," making me think that other bodies have no standing to impose requirements on how and when the Senate does so. I think Speaker Pelosi is abusing her power and obstructing justice. Ironic.

[HorsCat]

It's interesting that Speaker Pelosi told reporters after the vote that she intends to delay formal, physical delivery of the articles of impeachment to the Senate until Democrats can be assured a “fair process” in the upper chamber.

Speaker Pelosi has no authority in the Senate, and just as she and Congressman Nadler reminded Republicans that the House may conduct impeachment proceedings as it (specifically the majority) sees fit, well, sauce for the goose and all of that. Further, the Constitution states, in relevant part, that "the Senate shall have the sole power to try all Impeachments," making me think that other bodies have no standing to impose requirements on how and when the Senate does so. I think Speaker Pelosi is abusing her power and obstructing justice. Ironic.

I think Speaker Pelosi is - finally - learning to play Republican-style hardball. The GOP has run roughshod over the Constitution, the country and "the American people" since the black guy was elected. Consider this a sliver of payback to the GOP for Merrick Garland. There is no sense sending the Articles of Impeachment to the Senate when Moscow Mitch has already predetermined the outcome. There is no sense playing by the rules anymore when the other side has tossed them all in the shitter and flushed the chain 15 times. Personally, I hope the D's hold these Articles of Impeachment over his head until the end of days.

Objectively, the only just path is to kick the motherfucker (and his whole fucking family of moochers) out the White House stat.

[theflashunc]

It's interesting that Speaker Pelosi told reporters after the vote that she intends to delay formal, physical delivery of the articles of impeachment to the Senate until Democrats can be assured a “fair process” in the upper chamber.

Speaker Pelosi has no authority in the Senate, and just as she and Congressman Nadler reminded Republicans that the House may conduct impeachment proceedings as it (specifically the majority) sees fit, well, sauce for the goose and all of that. Further, the Constitution states, in relevant part, that "the Senate shall have the sole power to try all Impeachments," making me think that other bodies have no standing to impose requirements on how and when the Senate does so. I think Speaker Pelosi is abusing her power and obstructing justice. Ironic.

And somewhere Merrick Garland laughs.

The GOP is the party of Constitutional originalists, right? Well, last I checked there was nothing in there about delivering the articles by a specified deadline after the vote. Pretty terrible when one party unilaterally stops acting in good faith and established process norms right?

[Will Neide]

Pretty terrible when one party unilaterally stops acting in good faith and established process norms right?

The whole lot has stopped acting in good faith. The whole group of republicans and democrats need to be impeached and convicted for abuses. This whole impeachment process will not turn out well for the Democrats, and sadly Trump will remain president for the rest of this term and will win the next election. Pelosi never wanted to impeach and now doesn't want to turn over the charges to the Senate. She has enough experience and awareness to know what will happen next. The tit for tat is about to exponentially increase.

[King Of Dirk]

And somewhere Merrick Garland laughs.

The GOP is the party of Constitutional originalists, right? Well, last I checked there was nothing in there about delivering the articles by a specified deadline after the vote. Pretty terrible when one party unilaterally stops acting in good faith and established process norms right?

Is that what the kids call "Whataboutism?"

You're right, there is no deadline. Of course, the texts states "the Senate shall have the sole power to try all Impeachments," it doesn't state "the Senate shall try all Impeachments." I suppose Cocaine Mitch could simply ignore the articles, if the Senate ever receives them. Either way, President Trump isn't leaving office until January 2025.

[theflashunc]

Is that what the kids call "Whataboutism?"

You're right, there is no deadline. Of course, the texts states "the Senate shall have the sole power to try all Impeachments," it doesn't state "the Senate shall try all Impeachments." I suppose Cocaine Mitch could simply ignore the articles, if the Senate ever receives them. Either way, President Trump isn't leaving office until January 2025.

If Mitch ignores the articles, he won't be majority leader come 2020 when Gardner, Collins, et al lose in their re-election campaigns after they get hammered for being part of the casual dismissal of the third impeachment of a President in US history.
He's got more potential fault lines in his caucus in the Senate than Nancy and Chuck currently have in theirs. When you've got Joe Manchin supporting the delay in sending the articles, you know who's holding the cards. It's an incredible battle of political wills right now between two extremely skilled caucus leaders. I don't know how it's going to turn out, but impeachment is ultimately a political process.

[King Of Dirk]

If Mitch ignores the articles, he won't be majority leader come 2020 when Gardner, Collins, et al lose in their re-election campaigns after they get hammered for being part of the casual dismissal of the third impeachment of a President in US history.
He's got more potential fault lines in his caucus in the Senate than Nancy and Chuck currently have in theirs. When you've got Joe Manchin supporting the delay in sending the articles, you know who's holding the cards. It's an incredible battle of political wills right now between two extremely skilled caucus leaders. I don't know how it's going to turn out, but impeachment is ultimately a political process.

As usual, I think we agree more than we disagree.

For the record, I would be thrilled to see a moving van pull up to the White House door.

I can't get a read on who will hold the congressional majorities in 2020. My district was red forever, went blue in 2018, and will likely flip back in 2020. I think you're right about the Senate; the common view is that the GOP has a lot more to lose in the Senate next year.

I really want to support a moderate for the White House. I like Mayor Pete and bits of Senator Warren, Biden is nearly as dirty as the Current Occupant, and Bernie wins with me for being honest about his platform but I can't say I share it. I wish Hickenlooper or Jim Webb could be the Democrat nominee, but I think most likely I'm going to have to abstain from the Presidential ballot (again) in 2020. The odds of any of the candidates being worthy of my vote are quite low.

[72gmc]

Pelosi never wanted to impeach and now doesn't want to turn over the charges to the Senate. She has enough experience and awareness to know what will happen next.

I agree. In this situation, with the parties at this standoff, impeachment is not going to work properly anyway. I do believe it had to be done and I'm glad it has reached this point, given the breakdown of processes all around it.

[Scott G.]

I agree. In this situation, with the parties at this standoff, impeachment is not going to work properly anyway. I do believe it had to be done and I'm glad it has reached this point, given the breakdown of processes all around it.

Pelosi should invoke the Garland Rule, and keep the impeachment in her hand bag,
save it for a rainy day.

[thollandpe]

Either way, President Trump isn't leaving office until January 2025.

A lot has to happen for that to happen.

Maybe the least likely of which is that the decay in the man’s faculties (the slurred speech, the attention span, the inability to hold a thought, the letters to Erdogan and Pelosi, the calls to Fox & Friends) abates and/or reverses.

Erdogan dropped the mic on him and even had the balls to hand back the letter. Pwned by the president of Turkey.

His handlers (and much of his party) must know they can't even let him on the phone with certain people any longer, never mind a one-on-one meeting. We should all be terrified of a one-on-one with Putin.

Do you think we’ll see any more one-on-ones with a real reporter? Do you think he’ll actually make it to the debate stage?

My guess is that if he makes it past January 21 the only remedy will be a 25th amendment Republican mutiny.

[Colinmclelland]

Another thing I don’t understand.

In a country with a special word for swearing, how is it Trump is not under pressure to stop lying?

It’s not like what he says doesn’t get fact checked. It’s not like facts are partisan. Why isn’t he being told “supporters love you except when you make stuff up. You need to stop doing that”

Why are supporters happy to overlook his making stuff up?

I don’t get it. But then I’m frequently profane.

[Mabouya]

how is it Trump is not under pressure to stop lying?

Because the majority of his supporters agree with the statement that "he may be a dirty lying, thieving, immoral SOB, but at least he's our SOB."

[ides1056]

" Biden is nearly as dirty as the Current Occupant"

I beg to differ. This is truly false equivalence.

Don never coughed up a kid for the War, never showed a shred of dignity ever.