Caroline Kennedy --- 2020

[colker]

Just putting your critiques in context. It's useful in a discussion to know where someone is coming from. I see a lot of this "fake news media" talk these days decrying the NYT or whatever source from folks who will then spread articles from Breitbart, The Washington Times, InfoWars, and the like. The other outspoken conservative on this forum does that regularly for example. The other side does it too, I'm not going to pretend we're above it. There's plenty of really execrable stuff out there.

Anyway, it sounds like you've got a wise approach to media consumption, and I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

What i find weird is that Bannon and Trump are not conservative. Nationalism and intervention to create US jobs is closer to a socialist´s ideas. Even pressing for the state´s version of affairs X news is typical of the revolutionary left. Hostility against independent comercial media is a classic communist trait.

[guido]

How free was the press under Mussolini?

[Dallas Tex]

What i find weird is that Bannon and Trump are not conservative. Nationalism and intervention to create US jobs is closer to a socialist´s ideas. Even pressing for the state´s version of affairs X news is typical of the revolutionary left. Hostility against independent comercial media is a classic communist trait.

I think the establishment left is losing their minds only slightly more than the establishment right.

He's a Pragmatic Populist, if that's a thing.

[colker]

How free was the press under Mussolini?

Exactly. Facism and communism are close. Much closer than fascism to conservatism.
Not saying Trump is fascist. That just shuts debate.
I am saying some of his ideas oppose State and free business, State and demcoratic institutions. It´s the left that´s usually suspicious of a free press tied to commercial interests which would be enemies of the people.

[colker]

I think the establishment left is losing their minds only slightly more than the establishment right.

He's a Pragmatic Populist, if that's a thing.

You are either a conservative, preserve the institutions, fight any abuse of the state over economy and freedoms, incl. freedom of speech or you get close to authoritarian ideologies. Populism is one of the authoritarian ideologies... usually on the left.

Conservatism is about principle and institution. "The people" is never invoked by a conservative. He will defend the constitution and the individual as an abstract idea of freedom from the State. That´s the opposite of Trump´s speeches.

[guido]

For online production news my go to is Al Jazeera. It's hardly unbiased, but makes the effort to be far less sophomoric than typical 'news' sources.

Wait, a conservative who reads Al Jazeera? Aren't you supposed to turn to stone or qualify for a contact deportation or something?

[Dallas Tex]

Wait, a conservative who reads Al Jazeera? Aren't you supposed to turn to stone or qualify for a contact deportation or something?

Extradition???

All kidding aside, options are excruciatingly limited. And they've done a better job than most delivering quality content that I may or may not agree with. I can't think of another online site that has avoided the 'knee-jerk, obvious, cheap shot' content better than them. Go figure.

[colker]

Extradition???

All kidding aside, options are excruciatingly limited. And they've done a better job than most delivering quality content that I may or may not agree with. I can't think of another online site that has avoided the 'knee-jerk, obvious, cheap shot' content better than them. Go figure.

Good call. NOt letting the ideologists play w/ your head. Hard to keep that objectivity...

[bcm119]

You are either a conservative, preserve the institutions, fight any abuse of the state over economy and freedoms, incl. freedom of speech or you get close to authoritarian ideologies. Populism is one of the authoritarian ideologies... usually on the left.

Conservatism is about principle and institution. "The people" is never invoked by a conservative. He will defend the constitution and the individual as an abstract idea of freedom from the State. That´s the opposite of Trump´s speeches.

This is a good point. The people who won the electoral college for Trump were upper midwest rustbelt folks, or so the narrative goes. I am trying to figure out why so-called conservatives agree with anything Trump is touting. I understood conservatism to put self responsibility first, the pick yourself up by your bootstraps world view. Considering that there are plenty of good paying jobs in technology and engineering in other parts of the country, conservatism would suggest these rustbelters would gain some modern marketable skills and follow the jobs to the economic boom towns of the day, ie. the big cities. The free market dicatates where the jobs are afterall, and personal responsibility dicatates you follow them. Trump’s proposals are just the opposite: sit tight and the government will twist the free market’s arm into bringing your antiquated job back to your rustbelt town. We’re seeing a shift away from conservativism amongst republicans. In an ironic twist, Bernie Sanders’ ideas about increasing access to education to prepare for the modern economy can be viewed as closer to the ideals of putting personal responsibility first.

[spopepro]

This is a good point. The people who won the electoral college for Trump were upper midwest rustbelt folks, or so the narrative goes. I am trying to figure out why so-called conservatives agree with anything Trump is touting. I understood conservatism to put self responsibility first, the pick yourself up by your bootstraps world view. Considering that there are plenty of good paying jobs in technology and engineering in other parts of the country, conservatism would suggest these rustbelters would gain some modern marketable skills and follow the jobs to the economic boom towns of the day, ie. the big cities. The free market dicatates where the jobs are afterall, and personal responsibility dicatates you follow them. Trump’s proposals are just the opposite: sit tight and the government will twist the free market’s arm into bringing your antiquated job back to your rustbelt town. We’re seeing a shift away from conservativism amongst republicans. In an ironic twist, Bernie Sanders’ ideas about increasing access to education to prepare for the modern economy can be viewed as closer to the ideals of putting personal responsibility first.

With the disclaimer that I read the book as an 8th grader when it was first printed, so I could have some facts/details wrong, I've always looked at things a bit through the lens presented by Alvin and and Heidi Toffler in "Creating a New Civilization: The Politics of the Third Wave" (With a forward by none other than Newt Gingrich from a slightly more rational time in his life). To grossly paraphrase, the old political divisions of "conservative" and "liberal" don't really make so much sense in the post-industrial world. They encouraged the reader to think about things in terms of those who think the answers to current problems lie in new ideas in the future, and those who believe that the answers lie in how things were in the past.

To me, Trump supporters are not conservative, as much as overly nostalgic, regressive, and xenophobic (strict, literal definition) who desperately want anything that will return a time they remember in the past; a past that might not have ever existed.

[guido]

The Trump voters also delivered a whopping majority in Senate, House and on the state level too. So there must have been an actual conservative hiding among several of them. Or they were not paying any attention to/ or understood what happened in the previous 16 years. Wonder which it was...

[Matthew J]

The Trump voters also delivered a whopping majority in Senate, House and on the state level too. So there must have been an actual conservative hiding among several of them. Or they were not paying any attention to/ or understood what happened in the previous 16 years. Wonder which it was...

The Trump voters?

In fact the Republican majorities in both the senate and house are lower following '16 than '14.

[Matthew J]

Good enough for the President of the US good enough for a tinpot dictator.

[Vancouverdave]

The Trump voters also delivered a whopping majority in Senate, House and on the state level too. So there must have been an actual conservative hiding among several of them. Or they were not paying any attention to/ or understood what happened in the previous 16 years. Wonder which it was...

Maybe that they were just poor schmucks who had been played by 20+ years of brainwashing regarding Hilary Clinton--you know, that sadistic psychopath lesbian Commie atheist etc. etc. etc.

[EDS]

The Trump voters also delivered a whopping majority in Senate, House and on the state level too. So there must have been an actual conservative hiding among several of them. Or they were not paying any attention to/ or understood what happened in the previous 16 years. Wonder which it was...

Redistricting following the 2010 census likely has given the republicans control of congress for years to come. The republicans seem much smarter about these behind the scenes things then the democrats.

[spopepro]

Let's make sure we keep this intellectually honest. You can't gerrymander the senate.

The groups that offer the most full-throated support of trump have always been useful to the Republican Party. One could even draw parallels to the relationship between blacks and hispanics, and the Democratic Party (lesser evil, dependable voters for the ticket, then basically ignore after election).

Which is why you don't now see traditional, conservative republicans fighting trump even when it's very much against the party ideals. They still need this voting block, and this block will still vote R so long as they don't get crossed.

[colker]

My telephones were tapped by the secret service. I am pretty sure and if i feel so therefore it´s true. Forget everything else, let´s focus on my issues.

[vertical_doug]

My telephones were tapped by the secret service. I am pretty sure and if i feel so therefore it´s true. Forget everything else, let´s focus on my issues.

Actually, NSA is the culprit. Get the 3 letter agencies right.
Since you are outside the US, if you ever spoke to a person in the US on phone, chances are PRISM or another program recorded it. Whether it was bulk transcribed is another issue.

Your other internet traffic was probably logged by XKEYSCORE.

These programs exist, let's not pretend they don't.
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The problem with Trump's accusations is although he thinks he was throwing gas on former President Obama, he is really throwing gas at the FBI. In order for this to happen, the FBI needed to break the law. Hopefully, the story on NYT about Comey asking the Justice Department to refute the claim is true.

I listened to the Levin Fox interview where he definitely cherry picks the articles he cites. (It was raining in London yesterday so I was bored). Since the FBI was investigating potential Russian involvement in the election, and trying to track the money trail from the two Russian banks as reported, it seems reasonable that communications between Trump advisers and those foreign entities under surveillance would be picked up.

[colker]

Actually, NSA is the culprit. Get the 3 letter agencies right.
Since you are outside the US, if you ever spoke to a person in the US on phone, chances are PRISM or another program recorded it. Whether it was bulk transcribed is another issue.

Your other internet traffic was probably logged by XKEYSCORE.

These programs exist, let's not pretend they don't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with Trump's accusations is although he thinks he was throwing gas on former President Obama, he is really throwing gas at the FBI. In order for this to happen, the FBI needed to break the law. Hopefully, the story on NYT about Comey asking the Justice Department to refute the claim is true.

I listened to the Levin Fox interview where he definitely cherry picks the articles he cites. (It was raining in London yesterday so I was bored). Since the FBI was investigating potential Russian involvement in the election, and trying to track the money trail from the two Russian banks as reported, it seems reasonable that communications between Trump advisers and those foreign entities under surveillance would be picked up.

Yes. Unless he is special and not part of "the people", as he claims.
EDIT: Will he keep blaiming Obama forever to cloud his fantasy economy plans?

[vertical_doug]

Yes. Unless he is special and not part of "the people", as he claims.
EDIT: Will he keep blaiming Obama forever to cloud his fantasy economy plans?

No idea, but I plan to listen to the Chris Plante and Rush Limbaugh shows on WMAL today. I want to hear how they are spinning this on talk radio.

If you go to WMAL | 15.9 FM and AM 63—Where Washington Comes To Talk | WMAL-AF, you can probably listen live too. My co-workers who are pretty much a cross section of the EU and MENA, find it fascinating.

BTW, Mark Levin who is probably the source of this whole storm, is on from 6pm-9pm Eastern time if you care to listen to him