It’s telling that there’s no Impeachment thread on VS...

[Mabouya]

Proponents of the popular vote frequently wish to flood the United States with illegal immigrants and manipulate the motor voter system.
No thanks. The United States prefers that our POTUS candidates reach all four corners of our nation and appeal to lawful citizen voters.

And where exactly is all the evidence of this? (Other than it being Trump's claim - incorrect, of course - that that's why he didn't win the popular vote.)

You'd think that by now the Commission he set up to investigate all that DEM cheating would have turned up loads of evidence. But no, just .... crickets. I wonder why they can't find anything. Maybe, just maybe because there's nothing there. Sure, a few cases of some confused 75 year old voting in the wrong precinct, but not a single shred of evidence of a vast left-wing conspiracy (to paraphrase Trump's favorite lady).

[Mabouya]

Where the fuck are we living? Was our democracy always so tenuous.

Apparently - and we never knew it.

One theory I have is that things like this (idiots allowed to take the reigns) happen when there are no or low real external threats to the country. Because if there are, voters realize that this is no to to f-around and they elect competent leaders. Of course all of this "Mexicans are taking over the country - we have to build a wall !!!" is just BS, and deep in their hearts people know that there's no existential threat (unless you're talking about a potential loss of hard-working people willing to pick our crops in hot and dry conditions in California).

[sk_tle]

the President’s commitment to the Nation’s farmers and ranchers. In total, roughly one-third of farm income will come from Government payments and crop insurance benefits this year.

I didn't realized Trump was a soviet communist until now.

[sk_tle]

with the half-dozen Conservatives here.

I don't think conservative is the correct word.

[Corso]

If you haven't heard, conservatism now means government intervention in the free market as well as socializing the losses.

If you haven't heard, American farmers have been getting government subsidies since the 1930s.

By FDR, a Democrat.

Are you saying helping farmers is a bad thing?

And are you willing to criticize every President since FDR? Or only the current guy who wasn't even born when this all started?

[Corso]

And where exactly is all the evidence of this? (Other than it being Trump's claim - incorrect, of course - that that's why he didn't win the popular vote.)

You'd think that by now the Commission he set up to investigate all that DEM cheating would have turned up loads of evidence. But no, just .... crickets. I wonder why they can't find anything. Maybe, just maybe because there's nothing there. Sure, a few cases of some confused 75 year old voting in the wrong precinct, but not a single shred of evidence of a vast left-wing conspiracy (to paraphrase Trump's favorite lady).

This has come up in the past, so I'll try to be brief: I've personally had my vote taken in my city. I've been witness to a neighbor having his vote taken. No IDs needed. The Democrats are the one fighting hard for NO voter ids, citing "unfair to downtrodden" which sounds nice, but in this day and age getting an ID is not that hard. States want to allow illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses, which in turn would allow him/her to vote in MA. A drivers license is all you need to vote in ma, and proof of citizenship is not required.

When the Ds had their state conventions to vote on their nominees (MA) a few years back, they insisted that no one could vote without a photo ID. A Dem state official awkwardly explained there was a candidate from an area (largely hispanic) who may have a large following and they needed to insure "accuracy" with delegates.

No accuracy needed in a public statewide election, only within the closed D election? I believe they know how voter fraud works.

My kids went to UNH. Democratic recruiters run around campus to tell them to vote, as they "live" in NH. (I've spoken to them- theese kids are instructed not to get into conversations with adults) So the kids vote, the vote counts, then months latter, (vote still counts) some (my daughter included) get letters from the State of NH saying they may have committed voter fraud...but no investigation, and the vote was counted...

I'm not saying it's just Mexicans - I am of Mexican descent - but voter fraud is present, on all sides and always has been. Why isn't it investigated? I blame the larger swamp, as it's dirty laundry no one really wants to see.

[fastupslowdown]

I thought nothing Trump did could shock me anymore but yesterday's resignation of four prosecutors from the Roger Stone case and Trump's claim he didn't interfere despite sending a tweet hours earlier and a surprise change in the sentencing recommendation left me gobsmacked. Seems we now have full blown corruption at the DOJ and the process of justice at the highest level infested with Trump's interference. Barr is now exercising political control over investigations both friendly and hostile to the President's personal interests. And Susan Collins hoped Trump would learn his lesson? -Mike G

[sk_tle]

If you haven't heard, American farmers have been getting government subsidies since the 1930s.

By FDR, a Democrat.

Are you saying helping farmers is a bad thing?

And are you willing to criticize every President since FDR? Or only the current guy who wasn't even born when this all started?

I think what people are saying is it is hypocrisy to pretend being conservative and pushing those measures.

[Drew]

Canada is looking real good right meow.

[fastupslowdown]

I think what people are saying is it is hypocrisy to pretend being conservative and pushing those measures.

Exactly. if you are against entitlements and welfare then you should be against it at the corporate level and not simply when the recipient is an individual or family.
Prime example is Ethanol subsidies. Every economist says they are mistake yet we hand them out because its politically convenient -Mike G

[zachateseverything]

This has come up in the past, so I'll try to be brief: I've personally had my vote taken in my city. I've been witness to a neighbor having his vote taken. No IDs needed. The Democrats are the one fighting hard for NO voter ids, citing "unfair to downtrodden" which sounds nice, but in this day and age getting an ID is not that hard. States want to allow illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses, which in turn would allow him/her to vote in MA. A drivers license is all you need to vote in ma, and proof of citizenship is not required.

When the Ds had their state conventions to vote on their nominees (MA) a few years back, they insisted that no one could vote without a photo ID. A Dem state official awkwardly explained there was a candidate from an area (largely hispanic) who may have a large following and they needed to insure "accuracy" with delegates.

No accuracy needed in a public statewide election, only within the closed D election? I believe they know how voter fraud works.

My kids went to UNH. Democratic recruiters run around campus to tell them to vote, as they "live" in NH. (I've spoken to them- theese kids are instructed not to get into conversations with adults) So the kids vote, the vote counts, then months latter, (vote still counts) some (my daughter included) get letters from the State of NH saying they may have committed voter fraud...but no investigation, and the vote was counted...

I'm not saying it's just Mexicans - I am of Mexican descent - but voter fraud is present, on all sides and always has been. Why isn't it investigated? I blame the larger swamp, as it's dirty laundry no one really wants to see.

Requiring a photo ID to vote puts an additional burden on low income people. If someone doesn't have reliable transportation or the ability to make it to a DMV office in the middle of the day because of a work schedule, they won't be able to vote. As a gentle reminder, step one in disenfranchising poor (minority) voters is to require additional hoops like photo ID. Step two is to makes those hoops more difficult to jump through. For example, immediately after Alabama passed voter ID they also tried to close a lot of DMV offices in minority majority communities.

A state driver's license for an illegal immigrant won't allow them to vote. or register to vote. It's not like a legal, non-citizen resident is allowed to vote in state or federal elections (they might be allowed to vote in some local elections) and they already have valid driver's licenses. A driver's license will let them get a valid car registration and insurance though which protects everyone else on the road.

[fastupslowdown]

Requiring a photo ID to vote puts an additional burden on low income people. If someone doesn't have reliable transportation or the ability to make it to a DMV office in the middle of the day because of a work schedule, they won't be able to vote. As a gentle reminder, step one in disenfranchising poor (minority) voters is to require additional hoops like photo ID. Step two is to makes those hoops more difficult to jump through. For example, immediately after Alabama passed voter ID they also tried to close a lot of DMV offices in minority majority communities.

A state driver's license for an illegal immigrant won't allow them to vote. or register to vote. It's not like a legal, non-citizen resident is allowed to vote in state or federal elections (they might be allowed to vote in some local elections) and they already have valid driver's licenses. A driver's license will let them get a valid car registration and insurance though which protects everyone else on the road.

In theory I think voter ID makes sense. In practice its being used to suppress legitimate votes. If a state wants voter ID they should be required to facilitate easy and convenient voter ID registration which they don't. Doesn't take much to see through the b.s. Again I like the idea of voter ID but the implementations are nefarious. -Mike G

[Matthew Strongin]

I think what people are saying is it is hypocrisy to pretend being conservative and pushing those measures.

This. I don't think people are necessarily against farm subsidies, or, if they are, they're against them regardless of who is doling them out. The issue is when Republicans pretend to be anti-socialist, anti-handout, anti-subsidies and then make sure those practices remain in place as long as the recipients are their voting constituents. Add to that the fact that the reason for those subsidies, at least the bulk of them, are to deal with impacts of Trump's trade war and there's an extra dollop of bullshit on top of the hypocrisy. The cherry on top, per the quote bcm119 shared, is that farm income is rising and and likely to beat the 18 year historical average during the same time period that farming is so tough they need expanded subsidies.

As a result, USDA is projecting that farm income will rise for the third year in a row, and if projections are realized, farm income would be above the historical average of the 2000 to 2018 period.

So, yeah, there's some hypocritical bullshit in all this.

[fastupslowdown]

This. I don't think people are necessarily against farm subsidies, or, if they are, they're against them regardless of who is doling them out. The issue is when Republicans pretend to be anti-socialist, anti-handout, anti-subsidies and then make sure those practices remain in place as long as the recipients are their voting constituents. Add to that the fact that the reason for those subsidies, at least the bulk of them, are to deal with impacts of Trump's trade war and there's an extra dollop of bullshit on top of the hypocrisy. The cherry on top, per the quote bcm119 shared, is that farm income is rising and and likely to beat the 18 year historical average during the same time period that farming is so tough they need expanded subsidies.



So, yeah, there's some hypocritical bullshit in all this.

I agree its hypocritical to be for one and against the other. In general I think subsidies , tariffs and quotas are bad for the economy, result in job losses and higher prices. Ethanol subsidies have made corn more expensive and in turn beef, sugar quotas have driven out candy manufacturers and resulted in a corn syrup industry because a few crony capitalists growing sugar are protected from cheaper competitors. This predates the Trump trade war. I've held this view for decades. Saying corporations should get a hand-out but not people implies a value judgment that one is more worthy than the other.

[jclay]

In theory I think voter ID makes sense. In practice its being used to suppress legitimate votes. If a state wants voter ID they should be required to facilitate easy and convenient voter ID registration which they don't. Doesn't take much to see through the b.s. Again I like the idea of voter ID but the implementations are nefarious. -Mike G

^^^That, exactly that.

[Toddykins]

Don’t worry Strongin, we will see a recommitment to Republican values round about the next Democratic administration...

[theflashunc]

In theory I think voter ID makes sense. In practice its being used to suppress legitimate votes. If a state wants voter ID they should be required to facilitate easy and convenient voter ID registration which they don't. Doesn't take much to see through the b.s. Again I like the idea of voter ID but the implementations are nefarious. -Mike G

It's just a more subtle version of the poll tax.

I have a hard time thing a fundamental right of our citizenry to a privilege that isn't required to have to live in this country.

[marley]

I agree its hypocritical to be for one and against the other. In general I think subsidies , tariffs and quotas are bad for the economy, result in job losses and higher prices. Ethanol subsidies have made corn more expensive and in turn beef, sugar quotas have driven out candy manufacturers and resulted in a corn syrup industry because a few crony capitalists growing sugar are protected from cheaper competitors. This predates the Trump trade war. I've held this view for decades. Saying corporations should get a hand-out but not people implies a value judgment that one is more worthy than the other.

True conservatives/Republicans have always been against tariffs/taxes for the reasons stated above. The Farm subsidies paid out by this administration due to the tariffs are double what was paid out for the auto industry bailout. One could argue that the auto bailouts actually saved jobs. The resulting tariff war with China has hurt the US economy in terms the rising cost of goods and of course rich white farmers who are not able to sell corn and soy beans to China.

PS - China could care less as they have other markets to procure these farm products. Trump has reduced these "proud/brave" Farmers to welfare recipients - and we are footing the bill.

He is using the farmers and the related supply industries and farming communities as pawns and yet they still lap up his rhetoric.

I love it when his supporters keep naming the economy and their rising 401ks as his success - I am assuming his average supporter is 55 and has at most (if any) $50k in their 401k

Also the majority of Federal Spending flows to Republican held states - they sure love a free handout and of course love to promote family values and rail against immigrants.

How many of these D-bags have been caught in compromising bathroom situations, are on their 2nd or 3rd wife (Trump) or married to a foreigner (Tump, McConnell) - again OK for them but not for you.

[Corso]

Requiring a photo ID to vote puts an additional burden on low income people.

A state driver's license for an illegal immigrant won't allow them to vote. .

I don't believe the first. It's a nice emotional story, true if this was 1948.

But in current life, people buy booze, buy/rent houses, apply for jobs, buy rent cars, cash checks, basically live everyday lives with photo IDs. If you really want to vote, you'd find a way to get yourself an ID. Or the political parties would drive you there, just as vans take senior voters to the polls. Or in the Boston area, Democratic volunteers drive Democrats to the polls. They call your house asking to drive you if you have not voted yet.

It's time we made IDs a national law. For everyone hyper crazy about Russia or China interfering, it's puzzling that we don't tighten out own act.

The second: copied from the Official Massachusetts website >>Acceptable identification must include your name and the address at which you are registered to vote. Examples of acceptable identification include: a driver's license, state-issued ID card, recent utility bill, rent receipt, lease, a copy of a voter registration affidavit, or any other printed identification which contains the voter's name and address.<<

In Mass it's a firing offense if a state worker asks if a person is a citizen. Fact. So they don't ask.

[theflashunc]

I don't believe the first. It's a nice emotional story, true if this was 1948.

But in current life, people buy booze, buy/rent houses, apply for jobs, buy rent cars, cash checks, basically live everyday lives with photo IDs. If you really want to vote, you'd find a way to get yourself an ID. Or the political parties would drive you there, just as vans take senior voters to the polls. Or in the Boston area, Democratic volunteers drive Democrats to the polls. They call your house asking to drive you if you have not voted yet.

It's time we made IDs a national law. For everyone hyper crazy about Russia or China interfering, it's puzzling that we don't tighten out own act.

The second: copied from the Official Massachusetts website >>Acceptable identification must include your name and the address at which you are registered to vote. Examples of acceptable identification include: a driver's license, state-issued ID card, recent utility bill, rent receipt, lease, a copy of a voter registration affidavit, or any other printed identification which contains the voter's name and address.<<

In Mass it's a firing offense if a state worker asks if a person is a citizen. Fact. So they don't ask.

Which all sounds well and good but on the hierarchy of the safety and security of our elections, this is way, way down the list of concerns. Foreign interference and hacking of our systems is #1 . Widespread voter fraud does not happen. As the Brennan Center notes, someone is more likely to get struck by lighting than commit voter fraud: Debunking the Voter Fraud Myth | Brennan Center for Justice

Or the 2014 Washington Post study of 1 billion votes cast between 2000 and 2014 that found 31 instances of credible voter fraud claims: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-ballots-cast/

If we're unconcerned about our election system security and want to deal with "voter fraud" first, then it's just a fig leaf for disenfranchisement.