NYT story

[Corso]

That math has to include the costs of enforcement and prosecution in an already overburdened system, which are a sight more than $200.00.

Which is why this is a silly exercise to make a single person satisfied that their elected official is helping them. Not the entire Commonwealth, not for the greater good, just a single person. Now if the subject matter was different, I could see it, but THAT particular word?

[ides1056]

Is this a commonly held belief among folks on VS?

My take has always been in order for the concept of free speech to protect speech it must also protect the most vile, heinous, unpopular speech as well.

Once we create a mechanism to police speech (and we apparently already have), does it concern anyone that the next change will be an expansion of what constitutes illegal speech?

One of my college classmates was general counsel to AMI, the parent company of the Nat'l Enquirer. When I talked with another lawyer classmate and expressed my outrage, he demurred. First amendment lawyers defend what most of us would find offensive.

So point taken.

I saw a bumper sticker that read, Make Racists Afraid Again. I think this misses the point: that racists are afraid, and need to learn that those they hate are no different than they are.

[lumpy]

Which is why this is a silly exercise to make a single person satisfied that their elected official is helping them. Not the entire Commonwealth, not for the greater good, just a single person. Now if the subject matter was different, I could see it, but THAT particular word?

What's silly is getting worked up about one bill out of hundreds introduced by request in every session of the legislature. All the legislators know this raises first amendment issues. It's not going to make it out of committee. But in Massachusetts there's a right of free petition that goes back to the Massachusetts Body of Liberties in 1641 (!):

"Every man whether Inhabitant or fforreiner, free or not free shall have libertie to come to any publique Court, Councel, or Towne meeting, and either by speech or writeing to move any lawfull, seasonable, and materiall question, or to present any necessary motion, complaint, petition, Bill or information, whereof that meeting hath proper cognizance, so it be done in convenient time, due order, and respective manner."

It's a constitutional right here in Massachusetts. You have to wonder why so many commenters and so much of the media are ignoring the gist of it. Maybe it's because it gets the audience riled up.

[Corso]

Lump, no one argued that they don't have the right to do so, but do you believe that just because you CAN, you should?

For the record, I'm not "worked up" about this, just amazed that something that -as you stated- will never make it out of committee is wasting our elected officials time. I'm sure you'd agree they might just have more issues to focus on.

[Dallas Tex]

One of my college classmates was general counsel to AMI, the parent company of the Nat'l Enquirer. When I talked with another lawyer classmate and expressed my outrage, he demurred. First amendment lawyers defend what most of us would find offensive.

So point taken.

I saw a bumper sticker that read, Make Racists Afraid Again. I think this misses the point: that racists are afraid, and need to learn that those they hate are no different than they are.

If I'm understanding your post correctly i tend to agree that some of these well intentioned efforts may actually produce the opposite of the desired effect.

I occasionally ask the question if all of these 'remedies' for a word aren't actually increasing its negative effect on the folks everyone is trying to help.

And to your specific example of the bumper sticker, i wonder how more often are these repugnant groups now visible due to folks basically challenging them to a public rumble ala 'Happy Days' every couple months

[davids]

And to your specific example of the bumper sticker, i wonder how more often are these repugnant groups now visible due to folks basically challenging them to a public rumble ala 'Happy Days' every couple months

I don't think that calling out demeaning and hateful speech is provoking more of it, at least not much.

I think it's the normalization of, and excuses for, this kind of speech from our highest elected official that is allowing its growth.

We are moral people. We know how to treat others.

And yet here we are, outraged at the consequences rather than the offense.

[thollandpe]

And to your specific example of the bumper sticker, i wonder how more often are these repugnant groups now visible due to folks basically challenging them to a public rumble ala 'Happy Days' every couple months

I'm pretty sure the "Unite The Right" rally in Charlottesville was not a response to anyone challenging them to a rumble.

Right-wing terrorism, specifically the white supremacist variety, is on the rise.
A Dark and Constant Rage: 25 Years of Right-Wing Terrorism in the United States

There was no challenge issued at the Wal-Mart in El Paso.
There was no challenge issued at the Gilroy Garlic Festival.
There was no challenge issued at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh.
There was no challenge issued at Stoneman-Douglas High School.

[lumpy]

Lump, no one argued that they don't have the right to do so, but do you believe that just because you CAN, you should?

For the record, I'm not "worked up" about this, just amazed that something that -as you stated- will never make it out of committee is wasting our elected officials time. I'm sure you'd agree they might just have more issues to focus on.

Do I believe that every person who has an idea, good or bad, should submit it to their legislator for submission to the General Court? No.

Do I believe that given the right to free petition in the Massachusetts Constitution, as it has been observed and interpreted, this legislator did the right thing by submitting his constituent's petition to the General Court? You bet. Constitutional rights are worth standing up for.

[Dallas Tex]

I don't think that calling out demeaning and hateful speech is provoking more of it, at least not much.

I think it's the normalization of, and excuses for, this kind of speech from our highest elected official that is allowing its growth.

We are moral people. We know how to treat others.

And yet here we are, outraged at the consequences rather than the offense.

You may have missed my point, or maybe I did a poor job of expressing it. The current strategy seems to have strengthened the word’s ‘importance’ in our society.

Just my opinion, but it seemed like the gay community did a much more successful job of disempowering words like queer and fag.

[Corso]

Constitutional rights are worth standing up for.

Yes Constitutional Rights. Agreed.

I also agree this situation has received press due to it's "gotcha" factor...B word and all. I'm wondering how many other petitions are entered that are (my words) silly and a waste of time...ten a year? Hundreds? Thousands?

[lumpy]

Yes Constitutional Rights. Agreed.

I also agree this situation has received press due to it's "gotcha" factor...B word and all. I'm wondering how many other petitions are entered that are (my words) silly and a waste of time...ten a year? Hundreds? Thousands?

I seem to remember it's just shy of 200 for each two-year session.

[ides1056]

I think the draft should be reinstated so that everyone has a chance to get to know everyone else, whatever color they are, wherever they come from. And this would also shake out the total losers who should not be allowed to run for public office if they run from serving.

[davids]

I think the draft should be reinstated so that everyone has a chance to get to know everyone else, whatever color they are, wherever they come from. And this would also shake out the total losers who should not be allowed to run for public office if they run from serving.

I am totally behind the idea of mandatory national service for every (able) post-high school American. It could be military, civil, even public arts. It could build nationhood in the best possible way.

No one even talks about this any more.

[Corso]

I seem to remember it's just shy of 200 for each two-year session.

Thanks!

[marley]

I am totally behind the idea of mandatory national service for every (able) post-high school American. It could be military, civil, even public arts. It could build nationhood in the best possible way.

No one even talks about this any more.

Easy to talk about when your well past the age requirement :)

[ides1056]

Easy to talk about when your well past the age requirement :)

My kids aren't, and believe me I don't trust the gummint with their care, but if the entire population was forced together in this fashion, there would be significant societal benefits. My wife's stepfather allowed that his military service made him rethink his opinions regarding race.

[bcm119]

My kids aren't, and believe me I don't trust the gummint with their care, but if the entire population was forced together in this fashion, there would be significant societal benefits. My wife's stepfather allowed that his military service made him rethink his opinions regarding race.

It's an interesting thought, and totally agree. As another anecdote, my dad was a staunch fiscal conservative, but his exposure to people from all walks of life in the Navy, esp in basic training, precluded him from ever developing any real prejudice. He was a republican right up until that party started openly embracing what I'll just call "fear of others" sentiment.

But enacting something like this now? it would play out such that whatever legislation was finalized would have to be approved by congress, and thus riddled with loopholes for rich kids to be excused from it, effectively making it useless as a tool for exposure to differences. Call me a cynic but what you describe would never happen in this country as it is now.

[GrantM]

And yet here we are, outraged at the consequences rather than the offense.

exactly my first thought reading this thread.


-g

[davids]

Easy to talk about when your well past the age requirement :)

Are you attacking me or just being cynical?

[bigbill]

My kids aren't, and believe me I don't trust the gummint with their care, but if the entire population was forced together in this fashion, there would be significant societal benefits. My wife's stepfather allowed that his military service made him rethink his opinions regarding race.

I did 27 years in the Navy and my son is a sophomore at Annapolis. I didn't need the military to teach me how to treat others, neither did my son. During my service I saw all kinds of racism and misogyny, the service is just a reflection of society and unless you have strong leadership to keep people on task and working together, it just another group of young adults. This one time, I was the Engineer Officer on a carrier and a guy walked into the control room with his sleeves rolled up showing what appeared to be brand new tattoos showing crossed Confederate battle flags being held by Klan members. I called the Equal Opportunity Chief who wrote him up, giving him the choice of removal or separation from service. I'm fairly certain I was not the first person to have seen his artwork. So, the military isn't much different, you still have to have people who call it out.