We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

[Blue Jays]

/\/\/\

Agreed. I am similarly pretty laissez-faire about policy, Moondog-Sparky.
As long as the vast, vast, vast population remains peaceful, we are good.
This seems to be the overwhelming case in our country with firearm ownership.
The recent Philadelphia dirtbag is a criminal with a long rap sheet and a prohibited possessor.

[moondog-sparky]

Yet again, the old man knew there was a crime in progress as he saw and heard them around his car; he knew they were either stealing or attempting to steal his car. He decided he wanted to live out an old west fantasy so he went outside with his gun.

ah yes, the ever prevalent "old west fantasy" that simply must be part of every gun owners wet dream. that's just gotta be his motivation here...silly old man wanting to play cops and robbers. what an insecure, juvenile minded old dolt he really is.

in my opinion here, murphy's simplistic portrayal of the old man (in effect all gun owners) as wanting to play cowboy is why many gun owners and others on the other side have such a huge disconnect on this issue and why honest dialogue doesn't occur - we're all portrayed as weak-minded folks who just want the excuse to pop somebody and actually get the chance to use our guns.

no. just no. the boys WENT to his property. they tried to STEAL his car. they made THEIR decisions along the way. the death is tragic, but i am beyond shocked that you continue to lay this at the feet of the old man. reviewing your posts, i have yet to hear you lay even a modicum of blame and responsibility at the feet of those boys - criminal boys. not choir boys.

i simply don't understand why non gun folks believe it is the responsibility of law-abiding folks to roll over ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY in order to avoid confrontation. sure, walking away and hiding would be safer - i get this - but, ultimately wouldn't it have been 100% safer had these ass clowns never stolen a car, carried a knife(s), trespassed on another's property, threatened him, etc??? i mean, it's not as if the old man went to them...right? surely you see this? the only other thing i can see here from your posts is that you believe in complete submissiveness as the best (only?) way to avoid violent conflict. i simply don't subscribe to this. that does not make a violent, gun-toting cowboy, however.

[moondog-sparky]

The slippery slope logical fallacy is exceedingly strong here.

and yet, after 9/11 our Moral Outrage was soooo great, we invaded not 1, but 2 countries (and are still entrenched there) and more importantly from a civil liberties standpoint, we rapidly responded by enacting legislation that granted our government BROAD powers of surveillance - many of which i think we're still truly unaware - over the general populace. all in the name of "security". boy...good to know that slippery slope thing is just a logical fallacy. couldn't happen here, nah....this is america.

[Corso]

This very recent news in MA:

Police called on van with FL plates suspiciously parked.

Police find man (who once and now again lives in MA) with CT warrants and an un-registered handgun and ammo- No firearms ID card. Guy cooperated with police, gun was in van, not on him.

Judge sentences 18 months (our infamous 1 year MANDATORY sentence for un registered firearm) plus 6 months for the ammo. Ok, so far so good.

Then...

Sentence reduced to 3 months jail time - with the rest of the time on probation, not allowed guns(in MA), etc etc., and guy gets to go to CT to fight warrants there. His lawyer says he bought the gun in FL and simply "forgot" to register it in MA.

My point: Why bother having more laws if ones we currently have are not enforced? Our MANDATORY 1 year law has been used less than a dozen times in 30 years.

We used to have signs entering our state saying "I year mandatory sentence for unregistered guns" or something like that at our borders. Those have been taken down years back, I guess they must have offended visitors.

[davids]

The elderly man was not walking onto his porch to fight criminals.
He was walking onto his front porch to check the source of a sound. He can do that.

He opted to be reasonably prepared. Good thing, in this case.
Had the 75 y.o. man instead been knifed to death many would just shrug and go to the next thread.

How many lives ruined? How many lives saved? One criminal dead, five going to jail for murder. Countless crimes prevented, many lives saved.

Do we really need to pretend that these fine young men were on the path to become fine upstanding citizens?

I'm really disturbed by these two comments: Contempt for some strawman stone-hearted gun control advocate. Zero empathy for these stupid children, even for the dead one.

You've made me sorry I wasted my time trying to write a thoughtful response to moondog.

I'm out.

[Dallas Tex]

This very recent news in MA:

Police called on van with FL plates suspiciously parked.

Police find man (who once and now again lives in MA) with CT warrants and an un-registered handgun and ammo- No firearms ID card. Guy cooperated with police, gun was in van, not on him.

Judge sentences 18 months (our infamous 1 year MANDATORY sentence for un registered firearm) plus 6 months for the ammo. Ok, so far so good.

Then...

Sentence reduced to 3 months jail time - with the rest of the time on probation, not allowed guns(in MA), etc etc., and guy gets to go to CT to fight warrants there. His lawyer says he bought the gun in FL and simply "forgot" to register it in MA.

My point: Why bother having more laws if ones we currently have are not enforced? Our MANDATORY 1 year law has been used less than a dozen times in 30 years.

We used to have signs entering our state saying "I year mandatory sentence for unregistered guns" or something like that at our borders. Those have been taken down years back, I guess they must have offended visitors.

Its the paradox that continues to baffle me. The folks that want the strictest laws on guns are the same folks that want the most lenient laws & penalties on violent criminals.

It makes me question the seriousness of their stated goals.

[Saab2000]

I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed. This seems to have run its course and if I could, I'd throw the ol' padlock on this one.

[Dallas Tex]

I'm really disturbed by these two comments: Contempt for some strawman stone-hearted gun control advocate. Zero empathy for these stupid children, even for the dead one.

You've made me sorry I wasted my time trying to write a thoughtful response to moondog.

I'm out.

Sorry, six criminals age range 14-18 about to attack a 75 year old man to rob him - they get zero sympathy from me. Seriously what if that was your father? Would you have rather this 75 year old man take the beating from six criminals? That beating would have probably ended in his death. And somehow your sympathies are with the criminals in this equation?? Doesn't that strike you as somewhat odd?

[Blue Jays]

"...Zero empathy for these stupid children, even for the dead one..."

Few people here had comments about my raped, murdered, and dismembered family member killed February 23, 1993.
A real current VSalonista.

I will not endlessly wring my hands over a gang of armed criminals in a stolen car picking the wrong elderly man.

[Saab2000]

Few people here had comments about my raped, murdered, and dismembered family member killed February 23, 1993.
A real current VSalonista.

I will not endlessly wring my hands over a gang of armed criminals in a stolen car picking the wrong elderly man.

This is too horrific to imagine and I'm sorry for your loss. I can't imagine this and I've no doubt it influences your thoughts on violent crime. A friend of mine was recently (last year) the victim of a violent assault in downtown Baltimore. It was awful and thankfully she is physically OK but mentally she'll be dealing with the aftermath for years. No doubt, events like these change one's views on societal issues and how we confront them.

[Matthew Strongin]

ah yes, the ever prevalent "old west fantasy" that simply must be part of every gun owners wet dream. that's just gotta be his motivation here...silly old man wanting to play cops and robbers. what an insecure, juvenile minded old dolt he really is.

in my opinion here, murphy's simplistic portrayal of the old man (in effect all gun owners) as wanting to play cowboy is why many gun owners and others on the other side have such a huge disconnect on this issue and why honest dialogue doesn't occur - we're all portrayed as weak-minded folks who just want the excuse to pop somebody and actually get the chance to use our guns.

no. just no. the boys WENT to his property. they tried to STEAL his car. they made THEIR decisions along the way. the death is tragic, but i am beyond shocked that you continue to lay this at the feet of the old man. reviewing your posts, i have yet to hear you lay even a modicum of blame and responsibility at the feet of those boys - criminal boys. not choir boys.

i simply don't understand why non gun folks believe it is the responsibility of law-abiding folks to roll over ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY in order to avoid confrontation. sure, walking away and hiding would be safer - i get this - but, ultimately wouldn't it have been 100% safer had these ass clowns never stolen a car, carried a knife(s), trespassed on another's property, threatened him, etc??? i mean, it's not as if the old man went to them...right? surely you see this? the only other thing i can see here from your posts is that you believe in complete submissiveness as the best (only?) way to avoid violent conflict. i simply don't subscribe to this. that does not make a violent, gun-toting cowboy, however.

"How dare you lump all of us gun advocates into the same stereotype. Now let me lump all you gun control advocates into this other stereotype."

Here's the deal, moondog, you've made some good points, some I'd even agree with, throughout this thread, but you're also painting gun-control supporters with an inaccurate and broad brush. There are many in this thread who are discussing and proposing reasonable and thoughtful regulations and asking for input from those who know more about guns than they do. I'm not inclined to lock this thread because, as usual, even this someone charged discussion is still about the best and most reasonable thing going on on the internet. If you want proof, read the comments in any of the articles posted for the shooting in Miami or this sad event with the elderly man and the attempted car theft. But, that said, everyone should ease up on the hyperbole and stereotypes. Everyone. They distract from substantive discussion.

[mzilliox]

I really do wish this forum and its thinkers were representative of the population in general, because we would not be having to have this talk if that were the case. thanks (most) everyone for reminding me there is some sanity in the world and that people still care and think beyond their tiny little bubbles. And thanks to King of Dirk for the honest response. while i can not agree with your rationale, its pretty level headed and fair.

thanks all for the enlightening discussion, i should probably quit now as ive already said too much.

nevermind this, theres no collective sanity, just a bunch of loose egos pretending at civility. one thing i did learn is moondog really loves guns

[moondog-sparky]

Thanks for that thoughtful and eloquent response.

I think my bias was to see your posts as reasons to do nothing, rather than attempts to gauge attitudes.

I completely agree that our national debate (such as it is...) is distracted by the horrific spectacles of mass shootings. They do not account for the vast majority of gun deaths. Despite the small number (relative to the overall number) of deaths, I'd recommend that the US take action to remove civilian access to automatic/semi-automatic weapons, accessories, and ammunition. I am not knowledgeable about the specific products, so that's as far as I'd go.

Most US gun deaths are suicides. So I would make it harder for civilians to obtain and to keep their guns. I'd require training, testing and licensing before you could purchase a gun. Much like we do with cars. I'd explore Red Flag laws that could be used to remove guns from civilians who are showing signs of mental distress that could dispose them to harming themselves or others. These removals could be temporary or permanent depending on the individuals.

I'd require gun manufactures to add more safety features to their guns. Fingerprint locks, etc. Again, I have almost no knowledge about the available technologies. We should make guns harder to use, especially guns that are not acquired legally (after the training, testing & licensing process).

I'd provide more funding for, and access to, mental health services, including suicide prevention and domestic abuse services. I'd provide more educational, job training and business development opportunities in economically depressed areas of the country.

We know that homicide rates are off the charts in certain US cities - St. Louis, Baltimore, Detroit, New Orleans, and Baton Rogue are the top five in 2017. Why are their murder rates so astoundingly high, while so many other cities are quite low? I'd fund research, I'd encourage partnerships and dialog between cities that have effectively lowered their gun violence rates and those that have not.

davids: my fault for not responding sooner and more directly. i do appreciate this post and your time to craft it - fwiw, i would support a number of the items you address above, not all of them and likely we would disagree on specifics and extent, but i do believe increased control is necessary. for example, i support UBC and a complete halt to all firearms sales / transfers without a background check - and all firearms should be registered, full stop. no issue there from me.

thx again...

[moondog-sparky]

"How dare you lump all of us gun advocates into the same stereotype. Now let me lump all you gun control advocates into this other stereotype."

Here's the deal, moondog, you've made some good points, some I'd even agree with, throughout this thread, but you're also painting gun-control supporters with an inaccurate and broad brush. There are many in this thread who are discussing and proposing reasonable and thoughtful regulations and asking for input from those who know more about guns than they do. I'm not inclined to lock this thread because, as usual, even this someone charged discussion is still about the best and most reasonable thing going on on the internet. If you want proof, read the comments in any of the articles posted for the shooting in Miami or this sad event with the elderly man and the attempted car theft. But, that said, everyone should ease up on the hyperbole and stereotypes. Everyone. They distract from substantive discussion.

Matt - well said and point well taken. i let my fervor for civil liberties eclipse my keyboard-mind connection on that one. i'll tone down the rhetoric, as i truly don't believe in the stereotype approach to addressing issues.

[moondog-sparky]

nevermind this, theres no collective sanity, just a bunch of loose egos pretending at civility. one thing i did learn is moondog really loves guns

i prefer to think i really like personal choice and freedom. whatever form that may take.

[murphy]

ah yes, the ever prevalent "old west fantasy" that simply must be part of every gun owners wet dream. that's just gotta be his motivation here...silly old man wanting to play cops and robbers. what an insecure, juvenile minded old dolt he really is.

in my opinion here, murphy's simplistic portrayal of the old man (in effect all gun owners) as wanting to play cowboy is why many gun owners and others on the other side have such a huge disconnect on this issue and why honest dialogue doesn't occur - we're all portrayed as weak-minded folks who just want the excuse to pop somebody and actually get the chance to use our guns.

no. just no. the boys WENT to his property. they tried to STEAL his car. they made THEIR decisions along the way. the death is tragic, but i am beyond shocked that you continue to lay this at the feet of the old man. reviewing your posts, i have yet to hear you lay even a modicum of blame and responsibility at the feet of those boys - criminal boys. not choir boys.

i simply don't understand why non gun folks believe it is the responsibility of law-abiding folks to roll over ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY in order to avoid confrontation. sure, walking away and hiding would be safer - i get this - but, ultimately wouldn't it have been 100% safer had these ass clowns never stolen a car, carried a knife(s), trespassed on another's property, threatened him, etc??? i mean, it's not as if the old man went to them...right? surely you see this? the only other thing i can see here from your posts is that you believe in complete submissiveness as the best (only?) way to avoid violent conflict. i simply don't subscribe to this. that does not make a violent, gun-toting cowboy, however.

You can try to paint me with that brush, but here is the deal, I have been saying for a few pages now that if he had stayed inside things would most likely not have escalated. I agree with Corso on this (see here if you have forgotten).

You can only control what you do, not what someone else does so saying it would have been 100% safer if the boys hadn't done those things doesn't matter. He knew there were criminals by his car. He went outside with a gun. After he shot the boy and they fled, then he called the cops. Not before. Probably everyone would still be alive if he had remained in doors. You don't seem to care about the death since it was a criminal and obviously they deserved it (although courts are supposed to rule on that not random 75 year old men). And he did go to them. He literally brought himself outside and into conflict with them.

You can call me submissive if you want; you seem to mean it as a slight, but I'll take it as a mark of better risk assessment. I guess I value life and property a bit different than you. A car is just a bit of transport. I have insurance. If someone really wants to steal it, I am not going to risk life or limb for it. Although chances are they wouldn't want to stop for a station wagon with a manual.

You seem to subscribe to confrontation both on this and IRL. I wash my hands of you.

[Blue Jays]

We know nothing about the life of this elderly man who was victimized by the thugs.
He was allowed to step onto his porch to see if everything was OK outside his home.
He may also need that car to get to dialysis 3x/week located far from his home.

The reality? Living an honest and law-abiding life reduces chances of being arrested.
These criminal thugs already had a stolen Lexus in their possession.
They opted to bring knives to an innocent man’s home to further their crime spree.

[Scott G.]

I don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed. This seems to have run its course and if I could, I'd throw the ol' padlock on this one.

We need a freeze and save for replay, next shooting, we just press play, and let the thread
run again in real time. Save everyone a lot of work.

[Dallas Tex]

We need a freeze and save for replay, next shooting, we just press play, and let the thread
run again in real time. Save everyone a lot of work.

That's hilarious.

These threads usually go to shit in the last 15% of their life cycle.

This thread specifically had some excellent interactions and insightful posts. This thread was far better than most, but it wasn't immune to turning to shit in the last 15%.

[Saab2000]

That's hilarious.

These threads usually go to shit in the last 15% of their life cycle.

This thread specifically had some excellent interactions and insightful posts. This thread was far better than most, but it wasn't immune to turning to shit in the last 15%.

The mods help keep things in check here, as does the generally high level of discourse and self-discipline by the participants here. I've never seen any other online forum where civility is the rule rather than the exception when controversial topics come up.