Trangender & Sports

[ericpmoss]

I didn't say they were doing it for some nefarious purpose, but it still doesn't make it fair. Now there are transgendered male-to-female competitive body builders. Take the 'competitive' out of the equation, and I have no problem with it.

[mjbabcock]

Has pro-cycling taught you nothing???
No one is clean; they all dope, always have. Enjoy the show.

[chasea]

The idea that women are built one way and men another is bullshit. Many bike companies are moving away from the "women need different frames" model.

Line up any 10 regular posters here and tell me men are all built one way.

No one is transitioning to pee closer to you or gain an unfair advantage in sports.

[ericpmoss]

I specifically said I didn't say that anyone was trying to take advantage. For fuck sake, is it Thursday? And as far as women not being built differently from men, not a single woman I know would agree with that. But whatever. There is no winning in this discussion. Bye.

[chasea]

Take the 'competitive' out of the equation, and I have no problem with it.

How about this? Its not up to you.

[chasea]

And as far as women not being built differently from men, not a single woman I know would agree with that.

These women that talk to you- I'm sorry, that's presumptuous- These women that you know, are they all built the same?

[chasea]

There is no winning in this discussion. Bye.

Certainly not with that attitude. Glad you recognized you're in the wrong. Bye.

[chasea]

Isn’t it weirder that you want climbers and sprinters to racing each other because of their genitals?

[Dallas Tex]

Certainly not with that attitude. Glad you recognized you're in the wrong. Bye.

Isn’t it weirder that you want climbers and sprinters to racing each other because of their genitals?

You may not understand this, but your comments are offered in such a way that it discourages discussion.

This topic has valid viewpoints on both sides. If you truly have a confidence in your opinions, you should encourage other points of view to engage in the discussion. That’s how one develops a balanced perspective.

It’s disappointing to see so many folks these days avoid differing opinions with a religious zeal and fervor.

[dgaddis]

Chasea - First off, Daltex is 100% right, when you come off aggressive and insulting everyone it discourages discussion. Secondly, if men and women aren't different, then eff it, lets get rid of Mens Racing, and Womens Racing, and lets just have Racing. That way women would have equal opportunity to make as much money as the men, get the same exposure, etc.

Of course not all men are the same, and not all women are the same - no one is saying that. There's plenty of women who are bigger and stronger than me and many other men. I've been 'chicked' many, many, many times on rides and races. But generally speaking, the idea that there's no difference between men and women is just nonsense.

All that said, after thinking about it, my position is :: Let them race. Sure, it's probably not "fair", but life isn't fair. None of us are created equal. And ultimately it's just a game, let them play. I agree that no one is getting their dick cut off so they can win bike races.

[ElvisMerckx]

The idea that women are built one way and men another is bullshit.

Nope, not bullshit at all. If you remove chromosomes, sex organs and hormones from the equation, there are still pronounced differences in bone mass, muscle mass, heart structure, pulmonary capacity, rib cage structure, arm structure, ankle structure, pelvis, body fat proportion and placement, etc.

[Saab2000]

This nation has painted itself into a few corners because of hardline, absolutist views and shouting at anyone who is not in lockstep with those viewpoints. That's not how a free society should think and it has brought us to the brink of disaster.

People here have had very reasonable discussions about political and societal issues with nuance and varied viewpoints and I've learned a lot from people who have different viewpoints than my own. There's no need to get angry because someone thinks differently.

It is reasonable to have this discussion. Maybe we can learn something, but not if we have already hardened our positions into absolutes and closed our minds. Open mindedness is a two-way street.

Do we listen to hear? Or do we listen to understand?

[Matthew Strongin]

I recently read the autobiography of Laura Jane Grace, the trans woman lead of the punk band Against Me. It provides a view into the thoughts of someone with gender dysphoria. The anguish and torment of dealing with such a fundamental misalignment of inward and outward identity was eye opening, and I say that as someone with a trans friend who has had many, many years to get comfortable with the idea. Bottom line, I believe any discussion of how trans people fit into the binary constructs of society before, during and post-transition should start from the place of empathy and understanding. I'm not saying everyone needs to agree on the IOC/UCI's rules for competition, but trans people deserve enough respect to never have it implied that they are intentionally leveraging their pre-transition physical gender to their advantage.

Also, as I've seen discussions of this topic go way off the rails in other forums, I'd encourage everyone to by thoughtful and careful in the words they choose during this discussion.

[murphy]

Velonews had a really good article about this. I would encourage all of you to read it since it covers both those that have issues with transgender women racing against cisgender women, and the views of Dr. McKinnon herself.

[chasea]

Civility in the face of uncivil ideas. Respecting that there are conservatives making arguments for fair competition.

Got it.

[zachateseverything]

I recently read the autobiography of Laura Jane Grace, the trans woman lead of the punk band Against Me. It provides a view into the thoughts of someone with gender dysphoria. The anguish and torment of dealing with such a fundamental misalignment of inward and outward identity was eye opening, and I say that as someone with a trans friend who has had many, many years to get comfortable with the idea. Bottom line, I believe any discussion of how trans people fit into the binary constructs of society before, during and post-transition should start from the place of empathy and understanding. I'm not saying everyone needs to agree on the IOC/UCI's rules for competition, but trans people deserve enough respect to never have it implied that they are intentionally leveraging their pre-transition physical gender to their advantage.

Also, as I've seen discussions of this topic go way off the rails in other forums, I'd encourage everyone to by thoughtful and careful in the words they choose during this discussion.

I had a similar experience last year listening to the G.L.O.S.S. demo. Trans people go through enough shit that we don't need to go through extra lengths to exclude them from sport.

Incidentally, that demo is still one of the hardest records I've heard in years.

[EricKeller]

It hit me last night that we basically settled all this back in the '70s with Renee Richards when being transgender was far from being accepted, but we are still hashing through it 40-odd years later.

I grew up in an era of toxic masculinity (not that we really have escaped it), and I still am working through my feelings on a lot of things that have to do with this and related subjects. I know someone that is transitioning, a first for me. This person's eventual happiness is a source of anxiety for me. As far as transgender athletes go, there are long-standing rules that seem fair to me. The fact that someone wins under those rules is no more problematic than someone being an also-ran under those same rules.

[GrantM]

The idea that women are built one way and men another is bullshit.

Yeah, lots of women could kick my butt on a group ride, but i'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

While elite cyclists may come from the general population, it's faulty logic to compare athlete populations by gender this way, (ecological fallacy).
The reason why some sports are segmented by gender is because you actually need to compare the say, top 1% of males to the top 1% of females.

If there are only spots for 500 pro cyclists, they're going to be virtually all male. It's basically the same phenomenon
that males make up the 49.20% of the general population, and 93.30% of the federal prison population- It's not
comparing the averages between genders that matters, it's what's happening out there on the tails of the curves that is key.

-g

[chasea]

...i'm not sure what point you're trying to make here...

-g

Dude, you're so deep into a cis-gendered white man's thinking about this that you can't see it comes down to how kids are raised and where the organizational side of the sport dumps its money?

Anyway, you're always right. Never been open to the possibility of being wrong. I'm not going to engage.

Hey, have a nice life!

[GrantM]

Dude, you're so deep into a cis-gendered white man's thinking about this that you can't see it comes down to how kids are raised and where the organizational side of the sport dumps its money?

Read some evolutionary biology.

-g