What I've Noticed -

[Crowemagnon]

PS I won't add links or name names, but my interest in keeping the standards high is genuine.

what i have noticed as a newbie, as an interested learner, as a non-professional, is that the best advice not only explores complex relationships and situations, but it quantifies the key aspects of those relationships and situations. The best advice does this, (quantification,) to allow listeners to engage meaningfully with your findings, and initiate change in their own practice, based on the learning ( both your and their own ) done from those findings.

please quantify for me richard so i can understand what you are saying, what video you are talking about, and what specifically dont you like about it?

though it sounds like you see it as a trend, or a pattern of builders, and this video may not be your penultimate example, it might plot a point on the graph making the trend that little bit clearer...

[Tom Officer]

Interesting topic. As someone who has been only on the consumer side of the equation, my take is that, sure the cosmetic stuff such as the visible handwork and the finish paint all add to a certain "je ne sais quoi" to a frame, but what really matters is how it rides and performs. I raced at a high level for a number of years and had the opportunity to ride and race on more than a dozen different makes of handcrafted frames over the years. I can attest there are huge differences in how they responded when cornering, descending, sprinting and climbing. Some of the frames were absolutely horrible to ride and I couldn't wait to get on a different team, others were a pleasure and made me actually want to spend more time training, to say nothing of the extra confidence they gave me in a race.

I think we need to remember that 40 years ago handcrafted frames were used by everyone in the fire of competition, now a days, not so much. That alone makes a huge difference in consumer feedback to the builders. The new guys starting out in the trade now, they don't have that same feedback that guys like Richie had 40 years ago.

As a side note, I raced one of Richie's early frames (a Witcomb), raced on his creations 40 years later and a few times in between. I can tell you there was a refinement between Richie's early work and his later stuff, that first frame was good, did everything I could hope for but it was a noticeable change getting on the other ones, they responded so well in competition. It's hard to explain, but when you're pushing the envelope in competition, fighting to stay on a wheel on a hairy descent or through a tight crit course, the last thing you want is to feel that bike shaking or wobbling even a little bit. You want to feel completely as one unit under competitive stress and you also want to feel comfortable when out on those long 6 hour training rides, it's a tough combination to master and clearly takes a lot of years and feedback to get it right.

So Richie, about that new frame.......

[steve garro]

what i have noticed as a newbie, as an interested learner, as a non-professional, is that the best advice not only explores complex relationships and situations, but it quantifies the key aspects of those relationships and situations. The best advice does this, (quantification,) to allow listeners to engage meaningfully with your findings, and initiate change in their own practice, based on the learning ( both your and their own ) done from those findings.

please quantify for me richard so i can understand what you are saying, what video you are talking about, and what specifically dont you like about it?

though it sounds like you see it as a trend, or a pattern of builders, and this video may not be your penultimate example, it might plot a point on the graph making the trend that little bit clearer...

Are you saying that you are open to an honest review of the work you post?

I guess we could start a honest review of FNL images to start.

- Garro.

[Amaro Bikes]

But how much "more" work is enough? Who do they have from the framebuilding establishment to mentor or critique them? And I imagine there are so few production framebuilding related jobs out there, certainly without moving to a certain locale, that it would be near impossible to find one.
The newbies won't know their game is not ready for prime time unless they have teachers to grade the test....

The most amazing thing is how blind we can be when we're only focused in putting our names in a downtube. Not only there're many industry jobs out there for those who are really commited to become professionals (not long ago Moots was asking for tig welders in this very same forum, not even one reply...) but we also have such a gift as experienced masters like Richard, Tyler, Drew, Nick, Steve, Eric, Kris, Mike, etc, wide open for any conversation in this forum or at their private conversation channels. But of course, we can't be teached when we think we already know enough. We want to be at the top without having to walk all the stair steps.
FNL and Smoked out themselves are one of the best ways to learn where the actual bar is rised, the one bordering professionals from amateurs, the one enlightening the blind eyes. Many people can see these pictures and texts, not everybody will look at it the same way.
Best phrase I read about it so far was from Richard himself: "don’t go around the person answering you, go through him"

Going personal, for my very own case, nothing will ever replace experience, the more you build the more you understand/know, but none of this practice will ever get step forwarding results unless you get a humble attitude on how much is left to learn, and once got that clear, I started the true learning process on unvaluable amount of things by simply being open to learn from what I saw/read/build, and the more I have build, the more open I've been to drink for the experienced people's fountain. You could spend 4 years in any master's workshop, but if you do it without being conscious of how much we have to learn, it would be 4 years of nothingness. Same applies to open conversations, advices, etc.
Sad/funny enough, now I'm much more experienced than 5 years ago, I build better bicycles, but I can assure you the subjective feeling are pretty opposite. In the beginning I thought I already knew enough, while now I feel I barely know a shit.

Let's think of a possible scenario: Someone is actually building bicycles without good enough techinques or wrong process, then a truly experienced builder moves forward and let the builder know on the mistakes or wrong steps.
I can easily see two different results depending on the attitude:
1-Thanks a lot for letting me know and opening my eyes to be a better builder.
2-Fuck off you old curmugdeon, I know enough.

I know it can feel pretty shit if anyone let's you know you doing something wrong and you not being aware of it. But at least in my case, I'll always accept it as a gift, someone with experience actually giving you advice for free just to help you improve. Sure it might feel harsh first moment, but the other option (no one letting you know your shit) is certainly much worst. I always encourage everybody to open my eyes if I'm blind.

I think I already said this little quote from a book I read, talking about a master magician when being asked "why don't you take apprenticeships ever?", he said:
-First of all none of them will accept they know nothing, and that makes impossible to even start learning, which is a 4 step process:
1- Inconsciuous unknowledge. We do't realize how much we ignore
2- Conscious unknowledge. After some practice, we realize how much knowledge lack we have
3- Conscious Knowledge. After some years, we start to appreciate we know certain things
4- Unconscious Knowledge. After decades, we reach a point where we know without even being conscious of it, it becomes a second nature, and here is where we're ready to start thinking on superior concepts beyond the process, allowing us to make our own approaches and interpretations.
Then he ends up with a "As this takes decades and no one is ready to take that time to learn, I do not take apprecinteships anymore"

WE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF OUR OWN IGNORANCE TO START LEARNING

[Will Neide]

Are you saying that you are open to an honest review of the work you post?

I guess we could start a honest review of FNL images to start.

- Garro.

Hell yes! Inbox is always open. Creative criticism from cats who have been in the game is never a bad thing.

[e-RICHIE]

Creative criticism from cats who have been in the game is never a bad thing.

I can't help the tig cats or nonferrous guys. But anyone who brazes with brass or silver alloy rod and a handheld torch can tap me. Fixturing, flux procedures, flame size, sequences - whatever, it's all fair game. I won't waste time with bicycle design or business questions though. Just assembly stuff. The private line is therichardsachs@gmail.com .

[waterlaz]

PS I won't add links or name names, but my interest in keeping the standards high is genuine.

I perfectly understand why you would not want to point to that person in any way, but could you say what had been done wrong in the video you mention? Purely for educational purposes =)

[Michael Gordon]

WE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF OUR OWN IGNORANCE TO START LEARNING

I agree with this completely. The problem is…

The unaware are unaware that they are unaware.
-Merril M.E. Jenkins Sr

This next one is a jumble of quotes from various people, but also quite applicable to this discussion… The less one knows, the more they think they know. The more one knows, the more they realize they don't know.

Also see the Dunning-Kruger Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

I like to think of myself as being knowledgeable in a number of areas, but also quite aware of the fact that there is plenty I do not know and should therefore always be open minded and willing to learn from another's point of view.

Garro, and all the other contributors (professional and non-professional), please always feel free to give me an honest review to any work I post. I think that anyone willing to post, should also be willing to receive feedback. For me anyway, it is a big part of why I post on this forum. That being said, I'd like to say once again to all those who take the time to post, whether in response to my posts or to others from which I have been able to learn something, THANK YOU!

In any data set you will aways the high end along with the low. In our current reality, where the majority of high end bikes are popped out of a mold in Asia, I feel that anything which drives awareness toward the specialty market, it good for the niche. Whether it be the Sachs frame that catches your eye on a group ride, or an amateur built frame from one's basement, the more peoples eyes are opened up to the concept of there being options other than the latest chunk of carbon from Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, Giant, etc… the better.

It is important that people understand where their skill level is at before they take a stab at making frame building their profession. For me personally, I have been at this as a hobby for a number of years. I have training from my minor in college in the areas of machining, welding, structural design and material sciences. I know where I feel my skills are up to par, and where I still need improvement (and I am all ears when it comes to feedback and the opportunity to learn). I am always floored when I see work being sold which, under a coat of paint anyway, does not have nearly the quality in finish that my work has.

I've said this before in other similar posts… last night I baked a batch of cookies, but that does not make me a baker. I'm sure that all of us at some point in the past week have made dinner for ourselves or our families, but that does not make us chefs.

The flood of new blood into the niche is not unique to frame building. In the restaurant business you have everyone and their brother opening up latest & greatest extreme food truck. Just a handful of years ago when the real estate market was booming, everyone was suddenly a contractor flipping homes. The other thing that is also not new, is the simple fact that high quality will outlast low quality, and that has a direct correlation to those who are able to build a good reputation and a sustainable business.

Now, speaking of accepting critiques of my work, I am delinquent on posting about my latest build. Time to catch up!

Mike Gordon
Shop Dog Cycles
Exclusive "frame builder" to the Gordon family of Highland Park, IL

[Crowemagnon]

Are you saying that you are open to an honest review of the work you post?

I guess we could start a honest review of FNL images to start.
- Garro.

Hi Steve, im with Will in the yes please camp; engaging, quantified feedback is something I value from any source, though especially from people who have invested more time than myself in the processes and knowledge I am learning about.

Sure I can find it harsh sometimes, and it can be difficuilt not to take as a personal attack, but there is a lot to be gained from criticism. we all learn ways of dealing with it, some better than others. I went through an industrial design degree and then tutored two years of students following me. Now, knowing the influence it can have, I feel giving good feedback is harder than taking it; to give good feedback you have to Really know your work.

Do rest assured that I will respond as openly, honestly, and clearly as I can to any feedback so that I can be sure to be understanding the critique and engaging with it in a meaningful way; a way which can let me learn something. I would expect the same response to critique from those on the proverbial right hand side, but maybe im wrong to do so.

there isn't much in FNL from me, some more of my work can be found by clicking on my signature and following the links.

p.s. yes, lots experienced people are open and helpful. While they are being mentioned, i'd like to add Nate Zukas' name to the list as a rad dude for an in depth and clear reply to a seat mast question I asked him recently, thanks again Nate!

[Heinrich Sprietsterbach]

I can't help the tig cats or nonferrous guys. But anyone who brazes with brass or silver alloy rod and a handheld torch can tap me. Fixturing, flux procedures, flame size, sequences - whatever, it's all fair game. I won't waste time with bicycle design or business questions though. Just assembly stuff. The private line is therichardsachs@gmail.com .

That's what's great about this place, veterans extending a hand so the craftsmanship can continue going forward. There isn't many production jobs now a days for lugged frame builders so tapping into experienced craftsman like Richie is a wonderful provision for the newer or less skilled frame builders.
Thanks Richie

[Doug Fattic]

I don’t believe it takes forever to learn how to properly fabricate a bicycle frame to a professional level with the right training. What it takes to be in business is another matter and is much more complicated. When I was looking around for someone to teach me in Europe in the early 70’s (when the knowledge had pretty much died out in the States) I asked around how long it took to learn how to build frames. Their answers were all pretty much the same “It takes years”. Hmmm I thought this might be more difficult than I hoped. Then I asked their young recently hired apprentices how much the boss let them do. Everything they said. That encouraged me to go abroad and give it a go. It turns out the apprentices had the better understanding of the learning timeline.

I’ve been teaching framebuilding classes for 39 years. Not as a side thing but as a primary responsibility. Here is my observation. Not everyone has the ability to braze and file properly just like not everyone can play sports or music at a high level either. Life isn’t fair. How long it takes to catch on varies enormously. Some can right away while others never will and those in the middle will get it with lots of practice. This is why the question of what it takes can’t be answered in units of time or number of builds. We vary way too much in our inherited abilities and prior experiences.

For any meaningful discussion to take place on what training is necessary, the result we want should be clearly defined first. In other words the question of what makes a great, just acceptable or bad braze must be answered. Where we are going has to be explained 1st before it makes any sense to say how to get there.

The most sensible way to learn how to build frames is by taking a class from a skilled teacher. It is the fastest way to shorten the learning curve. It allows one to see the big picture of what is required and whether they have the sustainable interest and ability to continue. If not they will still go home with a custom frame (in my classes anyway) with help from the instructors. It is the foundation on which everything else can be built. Students have predicable tendencies that need to be overcome. A knowledgeable teacher knows what they are and how to correct them. I’ve always been thankful a master builder who knew how to explain things well taught me so I didn’t waste time and money trying to figure it out on my own. And I didn’t have poorly made frames still hanging around years later damaging my reputation. I’m happy to show people my frames made with single digit serial numbers.

I have also observed that there is just as very wide a range of quality in framebuilding classes as there is in the quality of hand made frames. Choose carefully.

[e-RICHIE]

<cut> Choose carefully.

Doug - how many of your students have become professional/career framebuuilders? MAP Cycles comes to mind. Who else?

[David Tollefson]

Doug - how many of your students have become professional/career framebuuilders? MAP Cycles comes to mind. Who else?

Or maybe a more pointed question would be: How many of the folks that came into the class with the intention of making it a profession actually made it happen?

[nspace]

I am a newbie to this, if you could even call it that: zero frames built. I would LOVE to take a class with Doug or Yamaguchi when I can find the money and time away from family. It would purely be for hobby/personal interest purposes. I am thankful to have a career in another field so that learning to build a frame wouldn't be some attempt to jump into the bicycle industry to put food on the table. Anything I blog/post whether good/bad/perfect/riddled with mistakes would purely be for documentation purposes. I would be thrilled if anyone pointed out my mistakes.

[Dallas Tex]

Or maybe a more pointed question would be: How many of the folks that came into the class with the intention of making it a profession actually made it happen?

One of my very good friends, Jeremy Schlacter, is a Doug grad. He builds Gallus Cycles in Denver (formerly of Fort Worth Tx). Jeremy has been at it for about 10 years and is a full time builder. He is an exceptional builder, he just doesn't like to spend much time on forums such as this.

I've met Doug a couple times. Jeremy raved about Dougs class.

Another name I'd add to Dougs list is Herbie Helms. Herbie is an excellent builder.

[e-RICHIE]

Or maybe a more pointed question would be: How many of the folks that came into the class with the intention of making it a profession actually made it happen?

Either way works for me. I'm interested in knowing more about the relationship between the years teaching, the amount of folks taking a class, and the rate at which a full-time professional happens. If I correctly recall an article from an old NAHBS magazine, UBI say it's just above one percent for them.

[crumpton]

I asked around how long it took to learn how to build frames. Their answers were all pretty much the same “It takes years”.

that is the correct answer when asking someone who doesn't know the ask'er from shinola. there is the "rule" of apprenticeship and there are exceptions to the rule.

[steve garro]

Hi Steve, im with Will in the yes please camp; engaging, quantified feedback is something I value from any source, though especially from people who have invested more time than myself in the processes and knowledge I am learning about.

Sure I can find it harsh sometimes, and it can be difficuilt not to take as a personal attack, but there is a lot to be gained from criticism. we all learn ways of dealing with it, some better than others. I went through an industrial design degree and then tutored two years of students following me. Now, knowing the influence it can have, I feel giving good feedback is harder than taking it; to give good feedback you have to Really know your work.

Do rest assured that I will respond as openly, honestly, and clearly as I can to any feedback so that I can be sure to be understanding the critique and engaging with it in a meaningful way; a way which can let me learn something. I would expect the same response to critique from those on the proverbial right hand side, but maybe im wrong to do so.

there isn't much in FNL from me, some more of my work can be found by clicking on my signature and following the links.

p.s. yes, lots experienced people are open and helpful. While they are being mentioned, i'd like to add Nate Zukas' name to the list as a rad dude for an in depth and clear reply to a seat mast question I asked him recently, thanks again Nate!

Well alright then.

I don't go for people's jugular, but I'll point things out if they are sub-par or unsafe, but I won't pick apart a "look"

- Garro.

[cicli polito]

With regard to Doug's classes; I did attend and I am one.

Also to add, I tried for apprenticeships and/or mentoring, and found (i.e. was told by those established framebuilders I contacted) to take a class. Doug was in my part of the country and recommended. I did end up with a job in the industry, also, after the fact.

[Doug Fattic]

Doug - how many of your students have become professional/career framebuuilders? MAP Cycles comes to mind. Who else?

Few that take my class have any immediate plans to become a full time framebuilder. Before class starts I ask every student what their goals are. Years ago it was mostly because they wanted to make something for themselves instead of buying it. Now their answers are divided between making more just for fun and finding out if they have the potential to make some money on a part time basis. For example bike shop guys would like to build frames in the winter when traffic is slow. Almost never does someone say they eventually want to do it full time.

It is interesting to me what happens to former students. Roughly half discover that they either don’t have enough ability or they don’t like the work enough to make it more than a hobby. Some just don’t have it while others can do a very nice job but are too slow to make a profit. The other most common barriers to getting started are not enough capital and no place to work. The reality of bills gets the advantage over enough orders to make it sustainable. Stuff just gets in way.

My classes aren’t a turnkey operation where raw talent comes in and a finished product comes out. They are a foundation on which knowledge from many sources can be built. Learning the basic fabrication skills is only the beginning of what is necessary to turn it into a business.

I teach about 5 three-week (going 6 days a week) classes a year with 3 students in each class with Herbie helping me part time. Having a small class has educational value over one on one. I’ve found that the 2-week classes just aren’t long enough for the average person to catch on to the basics. I still teach them occasionally because that is all the time some have and it is better than trial and error and looking at pictures on the internet for clues.

Looking back through my student roll today, I can see about 5 a year have eventually chosen to sell frames for money on a part time basis. Actually I’m surprised it is that high. Some builders like to be a bit mysterious with their beginnings in there advertising so their connection to me isn’t always shown. There is usually a 2 or 3 year delay between the end of class and hanging out a shingle. About a third of those that start switch again to do something else. Also quite a number of my students took a class from UBI or Yamaguchi before coming to me. I also get a lot of foreign students that have a higher ratio of starting a framebuilding business.

One interesting observation I’ve made over the length of my career is that young Americans have a harder time with hand skills today than in the 70’s because there aren’t as many opportunities now to work with their hands.