Stainless steel dropout joint failure

[Nipper]

Frame failure

As per photo attached the swivel joint on the stainless steel rear dropout of my beloved XCr has separated. The frame builder no longer works for the manufacturer (I do not intend naming either) and both separately, to their credit, are quick to offer to repair under warranty. They both, however, disagree as to the cause, citing too little silver braze, too much silver braze, the wrong brazing material, flux left in the joint, galvanic corrosion. The silver braze has gone from a slightly golden colour to dull grey. Suggested repairs also vary - redo silver braze or tig and file smooth. Independent opinions would be welcome as would advice on the possible integrity of the rest of the frame.
The frame is less than two years old, has never been ridden in the wet, is kept indoors and has been immaculately looked after. The joint is not under particular strain as the bike was ridden 25 miles home after noticing the break without problem and, I suspect had been ridden some distance prior without noticing.
I have also built two frames of my own (an 853 with forks and a 953 - detailed build photo’s of all 3 on facebook Nipper Varney) as 1st builds without any experience but on a frame building course taught by the same framebuilder so built in the same manner. They are months old and hardly ridden. Should I question the build integrity of these?
Thanks
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...&thumb=1&stc=1
 DSCN2720.jpg

[e-RICHIE]

Sorry to see this issue, Nipper.
Regardless, please sign all posts on the Frame Forum.
Thanks.
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...rum-36866.html

[Nipper]

Apologies
Stephen Varney

[Chauncey Matthews]

Well, the silver didn't flow, that's for sure. Identifying the cause is speculation without being there, but the most likely reasons are improper cleaning (could've gotten overlooked while everything else was fitted up) or the joint being at/above temp for too long....or maybe some combo of the two.
Since you've built a 953 frame I'm sure you know how unforgiving stainless can be. Again, total speculation here, but I could see that if the stay was brazed in first the swivel joint could have been overheated a little and that would keep the silver from flowing out right.
The good news is that it's an easy fix , and with the use of welders putty and wet rags, the paint might even survive undamaged.

[Nipper]

DSC_0510.jpgDSC_0513.jpg
Thankyou. Photo's of workmanship here. Not sure which order the joint was done
Stephen


Stephen Varney

[Nipper]

Oooops - sorry, wrong side.....
DSC_0523.jpg



Stephen Varney

[Nipper]

Upon proper inspection by the manufacturer I am advised that the other dropout "shows signs of possible imminent failure" in the same place which suggests to me a cause more than a one off oversight / overheat. Has anyone else used this style of dropout with or without issues? Does silver braze usually go dull grey? Is the repair better done silver or TIG and filed smooth?
Stephen Varney

[steve garro]

Upon proper inspection by the manufacturer I am advised that the other dropout "shows signs of possible imminent failure" in the same place which suggests to me a cause more than a one off oversight / overheat. Has anyone else used this style of dropout with or without issues? Does silver braze usually go dull grey? Is the repair better done silver or TIG and filed smooth?
Stephen Varney

Those always impressed me as "Dicey at best" and I wondered if they were actually used by anyone.

- Garro.

[Jonathan]

Those always impressed me as "Dicey at best" and I wondered if they were actually used by anyone.

- Garro.

I've used the non stainless ones and with brass filler I've never had or even heard of a problem. I see side tacked seat stays all the time with less interference fit than when those are done right. I suspect stainless in the issue here.

[druptight]

I've used the non stainless version on 2 frames and probably have a combined 10K miles on them over 3 years - not huge mileage, but no issues thus far.

[Dazza]

I say, simply it is poor technique for this failed joint, because of ignorance and or care of required technique.

I have used the same stainless dropouts for many years before I did my own propriety designs to ease the build process in my life. Many bikes out there in hard use.

All silver braze rods used in frame construction will tarnish. It is commonly 56% Silver content in the rod. Silverware tarnishes EH! Over heating the braze will result in the braze boiling and pin holes. To make the joint a failure you would be boiling off the other joints as well.

If the builder was taking care and flowed the joint from one edge to witness the correct flow from the other side then a flow problem would be noticed.

Poor stainless oxide removal will stop braze flow. This is the number one mistake people make with stainless. Wire brush or chemical clean to appear shiny is not good enough. One must mechanically clean the surface and braze within the hour.
It is not difficult but it takes correct procedures, materials and new sharp files, sharp selection of carbide burrs and always new sharp abrasive bands, good flux. Good technique, and then all is good. These articulated joints are difficult but one does every surface and corner and all will be good.

Using the wrong flux also does not help.
Use only Harris Staysilv or Cycle Designs stainless flux.

Many comment on why frames with some stainless parts cost considerable more. Bitch moan and say, rip off premium prices, extortion blah blah.
There are many implications in using stainless steel that many builders do not consider, because of ignorance and do not consider in the pricing for sustainably and take short cuts.

I mention the above to assist new builders to avoid the mistakes of others.

Warranty repair. The problem for the customer is not the reason why, but a proper solution to their problem. That is between the customer and the supplier.

Is that too harsh?
If so wait till I comment on those builders drilling holes in main tubes and poking tubes through and their failures are now arriving.

[cicli polito]

I agree with darrell on all accounts above. I'll add two things: 1) that Gasflux type G is great for stainless, in addition to those two fluxes mentioned above. 2) in the picture you posted of the "wrong side" above, you can clearly see the failed joint, as brazed, prior to clean-up. It looks burnt to a crisp, and if that isn't shadows playing tricks on us (which i don't think it is), then that joint was doomed from day one.

[Nipper]

I agree with darrell on all accounts above. I'll add two things: 1) that Gasflux type G is great for stainless, in addition to those two fluxes mentioned above. 2) in the picture you posted of the "wrong side" above, you can clearly see the failed joint, as brazed, prior to clean-up. It looks burnt to a crisp, and if that isn't shadows playing tricks on us (which i don't think it is), then that joint was doomed from day one.

Thank you for all the replies above.
I do not know what flux was used
I had assumed the dull grey was tarnish but the frame builder told me it was galvanic corrosion
The burnt to a crisp comment concerns me. There are lots of build photos of both this build and the two I built myself under this framebuilder's guidance on Facebook Nipper Varney. I do not have the experience to recognise what looks overheated.
The drilling holes in main tubes comment also concerns me as all these frames have internal brake cable through the top tube
Warranty issue true but I am also a new framebuilder and wish to learn. I also want to know the repair will ultimately be successful and whether it's related to the build integrity of the rest of the frame
Stephen Varney

[e-RICHIE]

...but I am also a new framebuilder and wish to learn.

My sincere advice to a new brazer and certainly a new framebuilder is to forget the words stainless steel atmo.

[devlin]

As a new builder I would agree with what Rich is saying. IMHO stainless is only useful if you are wanting to polish or leave raw. I can see those drop outs are polished but it does have it's draw backs. My observation is that the drop out was kept too hot for too long and the silver started flowing back out of the joint. The blob on the outside makes me think that anyway.

[Nipper]

Thank you for this advice which I take on board retrospectively. My first build was 853 with s/s lugs and dropouts and my second lugged 953 which now concerns me.....
The 853 I have done maybe 4000 miles and the 953 400 miles. They do ride beautifully though ;-)

Stephen Varney

[Dazza]

Oh good grief.
Sigh!

idea is to share, teach, learn.
how about, starting small
that is my best advice to builders
The Framebuilders' Collective | Llewellyn – The Limpet
Learn the correct techniques and materials.
It is not difficult if one does the steps properly
Only mechanically clean stainless parts and tubes.

Questions?

[Will Neide]

Only mechanically clean stainless parts and tubes.

Questions?

Do you clean with alcohol after mechanically stripping the oxide layer?

[Dazza]

Do you clean with alcohol after mechanically stripping the oxide layer?

No. I use only clean fresh files, abrasive bands in the die grinders for a stainless part. Small carbide burrs are need for tight corners. Clean 180 grit wrapped around old sanded down smooth files used as formers are used for cleaning shorelines.
Then the dust is blown clear. Once the oxide layer is gone you have a good surface with some keyed surface, then it is just like a normal brazing operation.
One needs to have compressed air in a proffie workshop and die grinders. The cost is insignificant.

Lots of pics in here, but not in any real order, life is too short making the bikes and progressing

https://www.flickr.com/photos/llewel...bicycles/page3

[jclay]

I would not be able to conclude poor brazing, or anything else with certainty from the photo. That said, first question that comes to my mind is DO alignment and spacing? Not saying thats what it is but the shape of the failure makes me wonder.