The Art of Business: an open but serious thread about the framebuilding business

[ron l edmiston]

-- "secrets" in techniques, formulas, or marketing are really not secrets.., they add increased perceived value in addition to the inherent value..
the "secret" is how to pull it off while keeping it secret..

ronnie

[Stijl Cycles]

Batch build the best frames you can design and fab. They're made by you, and have your DNA. Just don't sell them for less because they're made and ready to ship. Or stated another way, don't let them out at wholesale. I gave up on custom in 1978 and only make frames based on my ideal within each size range. Sure, since I pull orders I can make a tube length 2mm longer, or a seat tube lean 1cm forward. It takes no extra time because the design is etched in my head. I consider what I do here as making production frames that are made to order, simply because I couldn't fathom having staff or working any harder than I do. And PS sell only bicycles. That should be a given, or at least a goal. This is a business thread, right?

I this would be the ultimate goal, right? And maybe it's only my perception that keeps me from being there, but I perceive that I'm a ways off from being there. So I figured like you and so many others I would take this step and see how it feels for me.
Only bikes... from a guy developing his own tubing and lug sets? or am I understanding this wrong?

And I just want to make this all clear - for the record: I did not start this thread to try to get this problem solved. I started this thread with this question because it's only fair that I break the ice with what I thought was a good question, and something that has been on my mind for the last few months.

But I do want to call bullshit on the whole trade secret thing. What purpose does this really serve other than to illustrate that you feel threatened?
It's not possible or realistic to think that anyone could truly realize the potential of all the information and skill that you have, even if you told and showed them everything. No one can build your style / method / way better than you.
Our hands are always going to actualize the movements differently, our minds see the same things differently. The allure and mystique of you or your brand is not in your secrets, not in what you are not telling or sharing.
I've spent all of my life among trades folk (I come from a long line of Stone Masons) and there are always those that are secretive with their craft, but mostly they are afraid of loosing their security. And then there are those are take joy in knowing that there are people who really do want to know about and carry on the trade.
Did you arrive at this secret 100% on your own? Is no one else but you worthy of this information?
Is it so frightening to think that a young green builder has been given access to the information that will allow them to be successful? Does that take anything away from you?
Isn't the secret on it's own just information, and the true value in your ability to utilize it better than most because of your wisdom and years of experience?
I guess I just can't fathom what you have to lose in the telling, or why the idea that someone like me gaining in the hearing, is bad.

Hell, maybe that's just it. I don't understand...

[11.4]

I this would be the ultimate goal, right? And maybe it's only my perception that keeps me from being there, but I perceive that I'm a ways off from being there. So I figured like you and so many others I would take this step and see how it feels for me.
Only bikes... from a guy developing his own tubing and lug sets? or am I understanding this wrong?

And I just want to make this all clear - for the record: I did not start this thread to try to get this problem solved. I started this thread with this question because it's only fair that I break the ice with what I thought was a good question, and something that has been on my mind for the last few months.

But I do want to call bullshit on the whole trade secret thing. What purpose does this really serve other than to illustrate that you feel threatened?
It's not possible or realistic to think that anyone could truly realize the potential of all the information and skill that you have, even if you told and showed them everything. No one can build your style / method / way better than you.
Our hands are always going to actualize the movements differently, our minds see the same things differently. The allure and mystique of you or your brand is not in your secrets, not in what you are not telling or sharing.
I've spent all of my life among trades folk (I come from a long line of Stone Masons) and there are always those that are secretive with their craft, but mostly they are afraid of loosing their security. And then there are those are take joy in knowing that there are people who really do want to know about and carry on the trade.
Did you arrive at this secret 100% on your own? Is no one else but you worthy of this information?
Is it so frightening to think that a young green builder has been given access to the information that will allow them to be successful? Does that take anything away from you?
Isn't the secret on it's own just information, and the true value in your ability to utilize it better than most because of your wisdom and years of experience?
I guess I just can't fathom what you have to lose in the telling, or why the idea that someone like me gaining in the hearing, is bad.

Hell, maybe that's just it. I don't understand...

It isn't really about how to file a lug any more than winning a race is about having some secret sprint. It's all about what's inside you and what drives you to make yourself a success. That's why having secrets is both important, and irrelevant. It's the experience, not the file, that makes one unique. And that's why it's not that relevant to discuss -- it's secrets that aren't hidden but aren't conveyable by anything but experience.

Now that's an ATMO if I ever heard one.

[e-RICHIE]

I this would be the ultimate goal, right? And maybe it's only my perception that keeps me from being there, but I perceive that I'm a ways off from being there. So I figured like you and so many others I would take this step and see how it feels for me.
Only bikes... from a guy developing his own tubing and lug sets? or am I understanding this wrong?

And I just want to make this all clear - for the record: I did not start this thread to try to get this problem solved. I started this thread with this question because it's only fair that I break the ice with what I thought was a good question, and something that has been on my mind for the last few months.

But I do want to call bullshit on the whole trade secret thing. What purpose does this really serve other than to illustrate that you feel threatened?
It's not possible or realistic to think that anyone could truly realize the potential of all the information and skill that you have, even if you told and showed them everything. No one can build your style / method / way better than you.
Our hands are always going to actualize the movements differently, our minds see the same things differently. The allure and mystique of you or your brand is not in your secrets, not in what you are not telling or sharing.
I've spent all of my life among trades folk (I come from a long line of Stone Masons) and there are always those that are secretive with their craft, but mostly they are afraid of loosing their security. And then there are those are take joy in knowing that there are people who really do want to know about and carry on the trade.
Did you arrive at this secret 100% on your own? Is no one else but you worthy of this information?
Is it so frightening to think that a young green builder has been given access to the information that will allow them to be successful? Does that take anything away from you?
Isn't the secret on it's own just information, and the true value in your ability to utilize it better than most because of your wisdom and years of experience?
I guess I just can't fathom what you have to lose in the telling, or why the idea that someone like me gaining in the hearing, is bad.

Hell, maybe that's just it. I don't understand...

I must have missed a memo here. Is this for me, the comments about trade secrets and feeling threatened? If so, where did this come from? Before you answer, if you do, I've been open and have shared details, process shots, tutorials, advice, and have mentored online in all of the frame rooms since 1999 or so.

PS yeah on the just-bicycles question. You work hard to make these frames but without components, they're incomplete. Sell them assembled. That's the goal. Make money.

[Stijl Cycles]

I must have missed a memo here. Is this for me, the comments about trade secrets and feeling threatened? If so, where did this come from? Before you answer, if you do, I've been open and have shared details, process shots, tutorials, advice, and have mentored online in all of the frame rooms since 1999 or so.

PS yeah on the just-bicycles question. You work hard to make these frames but without components, they're incomplete. Sell them assembled. That's the goal. Make money.

No, not directed at you or anyone for that matter. Just responding to the short string of comments about secrets being important. I just think it's silly, is all.
Sure, I have secrets to my success, bits of information that I hold dear that help me shine or get me through the mire. But they are not secret because I don't wish to share them, but because they are a part of my personal experience, and aren't really relevant to anyone else. More like a personality trait than a mechanism. I just wouldn't really talk about them, because theirs nothing to discuss. Like talking about how my heightened ability to smell helps me with with some task...
So I can only assume that those talking about secrets are talking about holding something back, keeping information to themselves. Otherwise, why even bring it up?

It isn't really about how to file a lug any more than winning a race is about having some secret sprint. It's all about what's inside you and what drives you to make yourself a success. That's why having secrets is both important, and irrelevant. It's the experience, not the file, that makes one unique. And that's why it's not that relevant to discuss -- it's secrets that aren't hidden but aren't conveyable by anything but experience.

Now that's an ATMO if I ever heard one.

I don't know you yet, but I hope to. Your thoughts are clear and really on point!
Thank you.

[crumpton]

I have "secrets". Though maybe not specifically helpful for what some have laid out for themselves. But I have shared my "secrets" with a few folks. Most either don't get it or seem to fail at execution early and give up. Point is while we view them as secrets, they work for the holder because of their repetitive use, endless evaluation/evolution, and eventual diminishing subtle dissatisfaction to drive perfection. So the secret isn't what we think it might be all along.

[e-RICHIE]

No, not directed at you or anyone for that matter. Just responding to the short string of comments about secrets being important. I just think it's silly, is all.
Sure, I have secrets to my success, bits of information that I hold dear that help me shine or get me through the mire. But they are not secret because I don't wish to share them, but because they are a part of my personal experience, and aren't really relevant to anyone else. More like a personality trait than a mechanism. I just wouldn't really talk about them, because theirs nothing to discuss. Like talking about how my heightened ability to smell helps me with with some task...
So I can only assume that those talking about secrets are talking about holding something back, keeping information to themselves. Otherwise, why even bring it up?

I didn't bring it up. Lane did.

Ask me anything about framebuilding, my history, how I assemble pipes, why I use what I use. There are no secrets. What I don't talk about is my business P+L records, my income, my faith, why I'm behind schedule, the projects I'm working on that you'll know about only when they are completed and ready to bring to market, or my family. I can be completely transparent on nearly all other issues related to what I do. PS I didn't want to be a framebuilder, I became one.

[11.4]

Hasn't this been done to an extent? Breadwinner (Ira Ryan and Tony Periera) and Sacha White with Speedvagen as a "mass-produced" Vanilla? Speaking from the perspective of the target consumer, not sure there's a huge potential market for this even though the niche exists. Such a market would be watered down in most retail shops in an era where metal bikes are not the latest and greatest in the eyes of the general riding public.

On this particular point, I don't think Sacha started SV to make more money. He had huge demand, he knew that there were people who might not design like he did but who could build like he did, and he saw himself more as a design house than a frame builder. Big important difference.

Plus, he had a ridiculous waiting list and too many people had his cell number. He had to do something.

[Stijl Cycles]

On this particular point, I don't think Sacha started SV to make more money. He had huge demand, he knew that there were people who might not design like he did but who could build like he did, and he saw himself more as a design house than a frame builder. Big important difference.

Plus, he had a ridiculous waiting list and too many people had his cell number. He had to do something.

Little did he know that SV would become just as big and he would have double issue.
I think it's an interesting concept and his method of presenting it was very nice. Not that I think it really applies to me or what I am doing.
I'm more pushing food around in my plate.
What would it look like if I was to develop "models" or "lines"?
Would it work, how would it work?
What is the best way to start? One model through the range of sizes? Or a couple different models in some average sizes?
Do I bank role it? or do I try to find buyers for the prototypes?
Do I wait until fall to release or just start selling as soon as I can?
Do I create a new brand or just identify them under a "line"?

[Stijl Cycles]

I didn't bring it up. Lane did.

Ask me anything about framebuilding, my history, how I assemble pipes, why I use what I use. There are no secrets. What I don't talk about is my business P+L records, my income, my faith, why I'm behind schedule, the projects I'm working on that you'll know about only when they are completed and ready to bring to market, or my family. I can be completely transparent on nearly all other issues related to what I do. PS I didn't want to be a framebuilder, I became one.

I here you and agree wholeheartedly, and I also believe that business is business, and my personal life is non of your business.

[Mark Kelly]

The owner of the shop where I used to work has thrown around an idea of having a local builder do a line of stock bikes that he'd stock and name after local "things" (whether it's a place, a culture, whatever). The idea is that the shop itself would have a "brand" that is solely theirs, and he could also contract another local shop or two to stock the bikes that could then also be their own "brand". Kind of like a local open mold (though it would be a fairly simple steel design). I see a couple issues with this as a builder (taking up time away from the custom building, hitting a price point). Probably would be best suited to TIG assembly.

In the wine industry, this is BOB (Buyer's Own Brand) and it's a very one sided relationship. The more you invest in it, the more power they have. Unless your offering is unique, and thus transcends the branding, it is essentially a commodity to the owner of the brand.

[Rayburn Shaun]

I'm not in the bike biz, so maybe ignore this... but a great thing would be posting something fkn killer in FNL every Friday. Set the bar high every week and go from there.

[Gallus]

Thanks for this thread. The business side of framebuilding is often overlooked as it easy to be preoccupied with the skills it takes to build a frame. I don't have much more to add to this thread, but I would like to share a couple of comments David Cheakas of Southwest Frameworks said to me when I first met him. I was only just starting to get into framebuilding and made a shop visit to David's space as he was the only other local builder at the time, and had been at it for a few decades at that point. He said two things that stuck with me and that I have thought about several times over the past 9 years.

The first thing he said was "Dealing with customers is the hardest part of the business." At the time I thought he was being a grumpy old man and kind of dismissed it. After I began offering frames to the public that statement made a lot more sense. Establishing a sound business model and an effective system that your products are offered in will create the desired end result: a happy customer. There are several different ways to do this, but the easiest way is to have a straightforward "what you see, is what you get". It is best to have a something you can point to, and say "this is what I do and how I do it." The customer has a pretty good idea of what they are getting, and as a result you don't have to recall and then attempt to practice what you learned in your freshman psychology class.

The second thing David told me, or more asked me, was "What do you have to offer that no one else isn't already offering." People want a unique bike, and that's why they are getting one off a small builder or company rather than out of bike shop. It is easy, well not that easy but definitely feasible, to acquire the skills to build a good bike frame. What really separates a successful framebuilder from other up-starts is creativity, and once again a straightforward business model. It does not necessarily have to meet the approval of their peers, but if someone makes something unique and enough people out there want it, there is a good chance they will be able to sell a lot of them, as long as they have an adequate means of delivery i.e. pricing, time, and availability. Having something unique to offer can also relate to things other than the frame itself. It can be the builders personality. Are they knowledgeable and pleasant to deal with? Are they local, do you see them out on local rides or events etc.? Do they answer the phone or reply to emails?

[Stijl Cycles]

Jeremy- Thanks for sharing.

I feel strongly that being personable, able to converse and at ease with your customers is paramount to a successful business.
In particular with the really hard clients! A challenging or even combative client can be turned into life long believer, if you make the effort.

The answer to the second question: "what makes your product better? why would a person buy your frame over everyone else's?"
This is the classic interview question, right?
I've always felt that this fell more inline with the first bit. Client Relations and your ability to sell yourself.
Creativity and Artistic ability is a bit subjective. I agree that they can be what brings a person in the door or gets them on the phone, but it's your ability to sell yourself, sell your professionalism, your expertise, your ability to relate to them and/or ability to allow them to relate to you, that is going to make the sale and keep them coming back.

so- yeah, great points.

[mothattack]

PS yeah on the just-bicycles question. You work hard to make these frames but without components, they're incomplete. Sell them assembled. That's the goal. Make money.

Jordan Hufnagel told me this before I'd ever sold a bike to anyone. It's still one of the best things anyone has told me on the business side of things.

[Adam Eldridge]

Appologies in advance if this has been covered.

The secrets are completely transparent. Work harder than everyone else. Learn all aspects of pricing and your selling channels. Learn how to trust and delegate. Be prepared to catch the wave (if and when it happens). Find cash. Find mentors outside of the industry. Study your intended demographic. Pay attention to the wants and needs of this demographic based upon logical study (not social media). Pay attention to your analytics. Pay attention to your books. Learn how to forecast with Statistical methods. Get everything in writing.

[steve garro]

Appologies in advance if this has been covered.

The secrets are completely transparent. Work harder than everyone else. Learn all aspects of pricing and your selling channels. Learn how to trust and delegate. Be prepared to catch the wave (if and when it happens). Find cash. Find mentors outside of the industry. Study your intended demographic. Pay attention to the wants and needs of this demographic based upon logical study (not social media). Pay attention to your analytics. Pay attention to your books. Learn how to forecast with Statistical methods. Get everything in writing.

- Garro.

[Brian Smith]

On this particular point, I don't think Sacha started SV to make more money. He had huge demand, he knew that there were people who might not design like he did but who could build like he did, and he saw himself more as a design house than a frame builder. Big important difference.

Plus, he had a ridiculous waiting list and too many people had his cell number. He had to do something.

Little did he know that SV would become just as big and he would have double issue.

Who else can we pin a tail on here?

It should not be much surprise that bicycle business owners are neither more helpful to new entrants nor more forthright with their rationales when those seeking knowledge and the benefit of experience are presumptuous and/or primarily critical.
Some passionate sounding people in these threads, when they do appear from time to time, have their own ideas which time and experience will eventually prove ill-conceived and unproven.

[11.4]

Who else can we pin a tail on here?

It should not be much surprise that bicycle business owners are neither more helpful to new entrants nor more forthright with their rationales when those seeking knowledge and the benefit of experience are presumptuous and/or primarily critical.
Some passionate sounding people in these threads, when they do appear from time to time, have their own ideas which time and experience will eventually prove ill-conceived and unproven.

I don't understand what you're saying, or what you're saying with regard to those two quotes.

[LifeCycle]

Maybe this is just a display of ignorance, but I always thought it would be interesting to sell production single speed or fixed gear bikes with ability to customize them with paint and component colors right alongside big brand bikes. So carry a full line of whatever brand bikes but instead of carrying the city/commuter/recreational bikes of that brand, a framebuilder would just make their own. I know this promotes unecessary competition, but if specigiandale is selling their fixie to a dealer for $350, and you can make it for $200, why not sell yours for the same price and increase the margin? This idea, to me, would satisfy a frame builder's desire to build frames without tossing the full need to profit on their abilities as a frame builder and could instead piggy back of the marketing and business of the other brand or the reputation as a shop in general. Maybe this isn't as pure and it's not as artistic or something but everyone talks about the importance of a successful framebuilding business being mostly business, how would this not work even though it would be sharing with another brand? Is it just not worth it to build a frame for a few hundred dollars of profit? It seems worth it to ensure your chances of success, but of course I am saying that from the outside.