Where do you draw the line?

[MrkiMedo]

I would agree and say that is different to an industry peer reviewed certification which is what I was refering to.

I didn't want to bring it up before but maybe it needs asking. What do insurnace companies ask for in terms of proving that they are not taking a huge risk with a new builder? I've been making some initial enquiries so I can start building my business plan and of the handful of companies I've asked they have basically said they don't cover what I propose and gave no qualification to their response.

Has there been an instance where someone, a frame builder, has had to make a claim and has been refused because it was deemed they were negligent in their construction? Massive can of worms.

I guess it depends on the country/market you are in. I guess in USA insurance companies have experience with insuring bicycle builders, and have some pretty much standardized product. If you are in the country where insurance companies do not have experience with builders I suspect that there are basically 3 possible outcomes:

1) they will not sell you insurance
2) they will sell you some insurance but which in practice covers almost nothing
3) they will calculate your year production and assume 25% of it would cause deaths of celebrities while another 25% percent would cause permanent disability and offer you insurance priced accordingly.

Maybe US based insurers would be willing to sell insurance to builders internationally?

[Andrew R Stewart]

Yes. No. Insurance is a bet in reality. They are betting on the likelihood of an outcome given the scenario. If you were certified with a credible recognised system, like CEN, then their chance of loss would be lessened. I don't know to be honest. All I know at this point is no one is willing to insure my future business.

As this thread devolves into one of insurance... I am of the mind that insurance is to make good (as best can be done with only $) any injury to your customer. Not primarily to protect the builder's assets. Remember that a claim could be found for a greater amount then one's coverage can handle.

Any of us can (and will sometime) make a mistake in our building. I've seen a few nationally recognized builder's frames have god awful brazing (or lack of). Being skilled and/or insured won't prevent this.

As to certification, other then a strength/fatigue test, I'm not sure this would insure a quality process the builder follows. (And it's the process that influences the chance of really bad mistakes, not the skills of the builder, IMO) I see enough little tin plates hanging from service shop peg boards (Shimano's on line tuturals as example) yet see their mechanic's work still suffering from lack of attention to detail or taking the macro view of what's a well serviced bike.

Having said that here's a story. In my youth I found a reason to leave my hometown and seek my peace of mind elsewhere (and discovered that those painful moments on the phone with her just cost a lot more being long distance). The shop (in Santa Cruz, CA) I landed in sold and serviced mopeds (which in 1978 was uncommon) . We had the need to pull apart the crank case on one and it took heating up the case to free it from the shaft. The shop had a set of OA tanks and regs/hoses because a previous mechanic (held in high regard) had built A frame there. Since I had building experience (was riding #6 or 7) I was the one to handle the torch. So as I'm getting the regs set and the torch/tip ready my boss reaches into his filing cabinet and pulls out this tattered sheet of paper with chicken scratches describing the "proper" way to set up the torch. My experience was worthless and this piece of paper held court. While the instructions weren't really dangerous, I never ran my O at three times the pressure of the A and dealt with the turn on/off a bit differently. But I followed the paper, removed then later installed the shaft into the case and lived to write about it. But it taught me that a piece of paper was held in greater esteem then personal experience. After developing homesickness I returned to Rochester and was determined to get my own piece of paper. So I learned the textbook methods of handling OA and got sunburned running stick beads but got that piece of paper. Can't say that my building got any better though. That changed when I attended my first building class later in the year. But a class is far different then a certification. Andy.

[MrkiMedo]

As this thread devolves into one of insurance... I am of the mind that insurance is to make good (as best can be done with only $) any injury to your customer. Not primarily to protect the builder's assets. Remember that a claim could be found for a greater amount then one's coverage can handle.

If well executed, insurance sometimes has "preventive" effect as well. In other words, they will not sell you insurance if you do not operate according to same "safe" level as they see it, and in turn anyone that wants insurance must meet this minimum requirements. But I am not sure they have anything like that for frame builders.

[steve garro]

I usually draw the line down the center of the blueprint first, and label it "Axle Line"

- Garro.