I really look forward to the day when all police officers wear body-mounted cameras

[GrantM]

People here get bent out of shape if someone post something against the grain. I get called all sorts of names for posting an opinion. I’ve learned much from this forum, but am surprised at the anger a different view brings out.

Please don't go there. You're talking to the people who posted and replied here... not the thousand+ members,
so brushing "the forum" brush is a mistake. 99% of the members didn't even read this thread.
you have no idea what they think.

-g

[Bobqzz]

Wow, this tread has gone from a police complaint to you going to Slavery? I may be ignorant, but you just proved my point.

I guess I have nothing else to add, except perhaps this: even the human tragedy of the American slave trade wasn’t so “black & white”…

History News Network | It's Time to Face the Whole Truth About the Atlantic Slave Trade

Dude, really? Are you saying those who were chained and enslaved deserved it because other black people did it to them? That they, and their descendants deserved to live in a country that subjects them to legally sanctioned violence right to this day? Are you suggesting that American slavery wasn't racial in nature?
Appreciate the link- if you'd like a slightly more complete explanation of the subject, check out Hugh Thompson's Story of the Atlantic Slave Trade

Slavery allegedly ended in 1865 in the US, but one could easily make the argument it didn't really end until after WWII.(See Slavery by Another Name)

When did black people get the right to vote? 15th Amendment in the 1860s?? Think again- 1965 is more like it, and that was just the Voting Rights Act, not the reality.

How about government sanctioned and supported housing discrimination? Ever wonder why black people tend to live clustered together? Not why you think. Check out the Wikipedia entry for Sundown Towns. A more extensive treatment is Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism

If your tastes run more to narratives, the classic Black Boy by Richard Wright may give you some idea of what it may like to be black in the United States.



Want to read about Southerners and white law enforcement officers using rape and sexual violence to subjugate the black population up through the 1970s? At the Dark End of the Street: Black Women, Rape, and Resistance is excellent.

Why are there such a disproportionate amount of young black men in prison now? The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander gives a well researched and documented answer.

Does the Black community have some disturbing, self inflicted problems? Sure. Is one of them imagining they have been systematically brutalized and discriminated against for 400 years? NO.

Look, I don't know you, but it seems you have assimilated the popular, mythical narrative of race in America in which yeah, there was slavery and some discrimination, but we are all over that now, and the problems in Black community are all of their own making. Hell I believed lots of that into my 30s. Thing is, it is just not true. The evidence of the deep, endemic, institutionalized racism is well documented.

Saying there is racism and bigotry in the United States is not an attack on white people, it is simply pointing out the obvious.

[Corso]

Please don't go there. You're talking to the people who posted and replied here... not the thousand+ members,
so brushing "the forum" brush is a mistake. 99% of the members didn't even read this thread.
you have no idea what they think.

-g

Not my intent to imply "everyone", my apology. My learning comment did apply to the overall forum, all areas.
The “anger’ is this thread only. I hope to discover why by reading, and not commenting anymore. Thank you.

[Corso]

Bobqz:
I will follow those links. Thank you for taking the time to post them. But no, I NEVER said anyone deserved slavery. I was just referring to a column, just as you have.

[nahtnoj]

This thread took a turn, due to the recent Police actions. (and not by me.) So in essence, yes, if people put themselves in a position where the police have to be called in, whose fault it that? It’s the person (of ANY race) who is breaking the law.

Your premise is false.

Its already well established that you don't need to be breaking the law to have adverse encounters with police.

Akai Gurley was breaking what law when Officer Peter Liang shot him?

[Mabouya]

Its already well established that you don't need to be breaking the law to have adverse encounters with police.

Akai Gurley was breaking what law when Officer Peter Liang shot him?

And even if these guys were breaking the law, the issue is how LEOs respond when blacks are breaking the law vs when whites are breaking the law. We know folks of both races break the law, and both should be treated accordingly.

So what are my buddies at work (white of course) talking about now?

Well, it turns out that Garner (Staten Island guy who was choked to death) had a long history of arrests. Apparently that makes it OK for Pantaleo to put a choke hold on him.

[Vancouverdave]

I have to ask this question (and probably piss off some 2nd Amendment fanatics) but aside the racism, classism, and power freakery of many cops, could they be just plain afraid of literally being outgunned by overarmed citizens? When you can go to a gun show and arm yourself like a third-world country, and cops know that's possible, don't you think it could make some of them a wee bit skittish and quick to react?

[Loki]

I have to ask this question (and probably piss off some 2nd Amendment fanatics) but aside the racism, classism, and power freakery of many cops, could they be just plain afraid of literally being outgunned by overarmed citizens? When you can go to a gun show and arm yourself like a third-world country, and cops know that's possible, don't you think it could make some of them a wee bit skittish and quick to react?

Law breaking citizens who are overarmed perhaps. A law abiding armed citizen has no desire to have a conflict with the police. Do you think they want to lose the right to bear arms?

[Bobqzz]

I have to ask this question (and probably piss off some 2nd Amendment fanatics) but aside the racism, classism, and power freakery of many cops, could they be just plain afraid of literally being outgunned by overarmed citizens? When you can go to a gun show and arm yourself like a third-world country, and cops know that's possible, don't you think it could make some of them a wee bit skittish and quick to react?

Guns have ALWAYS been widely available. Always. There are certainly more restrictions now than in the past on the sale of guns. Today's guns are no more powerful or effective than those of 50 years ago. This is a kind of weird myth that has developed. The idea that you could restrict guns in America even if you wanted to is kind of silly. Drugs are illegal and we spend BILLIONS trying to enforce drug laws- how long would it take you to buy some?

I would attribute it more to the whole "war" culture. The rise in violence has coincided with the war on drugs and resultant police militarization. The "war" on terror has been additive to that. If you keep telling police officers they are in a war they will believe you, then they morph into soldiers complete with tanks donated by the pentagon. Check the stats on the use of SWAT teams over the years- now they are most often used to serve drug warrants.

Actually- I guess you are right- the police probably are afraid they will be gunned down (just as soldiers are) by "over armed citizens" even though they aren't any better armed than before.

In 50 years, when historians look back on this period, I think the inescapable conclusion will be that both "wars" were colossal mistakes that destroyed both our domestic tranquility and greatly diminished our standing in the world. Just as Prohibition created massive social problems and fueled the rise of large scale, organized criminal enterprises, today's wars have created a largely racial criminal underclass (poor young black/brown men) and a police state in which citizens can be gunned down with impunity whether by the police of a drone strike (think I'm exaggerating? The administration did say it could legally kill a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil with a drone if they suspected he/she was a terrorist).

[Chad]

Will cameras worn on the body cure all this...?

[Mabouya]

Will cameras worn on the body cure all this...?

OK, maybe not all, but at least 99.9999999% of it. Maybe more.

[Blakey]

OK, maybe not all, but at least 99.9999999% of it. Maybe more.

like fuck it will.

have a body camera, beat someone without reason, lie about having camera, withhold the footage after you're found out.

State Attorney investigates OPD officer after bodycam video of... | www.wftv.com
Cop Handcuffs and Beats African American Military Police Officer

[Mabouya]

like fuck it will.

That was, like, you know, a joke.

[Blakey]

Le woosh. My bad, I forgot which side of the argument you were on

[Mabouya]

I'm all for the cameras, but certainly don't delude myself into believing that they'll solve even a small fraction of our society's problems.

However, the little bit of data that I have seen suggests that when they are used officers tend to behave in a more civilized manner (the original reason I started this thread), complaints against them go down, and life is generally better for most involved.

I think it's just a matter of time until they're used in most police departments. For the good guys there's very little down side.

[earlfoss]

I don't believe they'll solve 99.9% of the problems people think they will but I also believe it's a step in the right direction. I do wonder what the unintended, unanticipated consequences of having body cameras will be. This will be an interesting thing to see unfold for police departments across the country in the next few years. Buy stock in body camera companies!

[GrantM]

Will cameras worn on the body cure all this...?

Well, there are places where cameras are being worn, the impact appears positive.

The studies where body cameras have been in use, like the pilot projects in California and Arizona
show a significant reduction in both citizen complaints and police use of force. Is this a "cure" for the problem?
That's a bit of a strawman, since nothing will cure it, but clearly there are things that can be done to reduce it.

There are inherent problems raised by using cameras, not the least of which is managing the data. But if these
studies are correct, they could be a major reduction of the problem, in Rialto by 60%.

The positive impact of cameras may well turn out to be a long term danger, leading to an over reliance
on the technology to deal with the police behaviour. Since cameras have been introduced, officers could
be changing their behaviour because of the attention to the issue of use of force. The cameras being
used have been accompanied by training for these pilot projects, as part of programs that frame this problem,
which in itself could be influencing their behaviour (even without the camera). As they become standard
operating procedure, the camera's effectiveness at changing police decision making could wear off.

California police use of body cameras cuts violence and complaints | US news | The Guardian

[Mr B]

I have to ask this question (and probably piss off some 2nd Amendment fanatics) but aside the racism, classism, and power freakery of many cops, could they be just plain afraid of literally being outgunned by overarmed citizens? When you can go to a gun show and arm yourself like a third-world country, and cops know that's possible, don't you think it could make some of them a wee bit skittish and quick to react?

This popped up on my radar yesterday. Even as somebody who never aspires to own a firearm and doesn't really sympathise with the current state of US policing, it hit me quite hard and stayed with me all day.
I figured this thread may be an appropriate place to shine a light upon it.
A very powerful short film. If you're going to watch it, you probably ought to do so alone / in private.
The original dashcam footage from the real-life incident is now used in US Police training academies.




For me, it went some way to reminding me what cops expose themselves to on occasion.

[dhoff]

I suggest that as long as police are behaving the way that they are odds of these incidents increasing in frequency are high. What we are seeing is a polarizing of parties. It is predictably going to get worse. Until the police come out powerfully in favor of just treatment of police officers who commit crimes, what is predictable is that violence against police will increase and the police will take a more militaristic stance.